Question:

So I say that when the Romans came to Western Europe they kicked our asses for several reasons. The most vital reason was the belief of one god, one land, and one king. We were of several gods, several lands, and several chiefs. That made it easy for Rome to put our backs to Hadrian’s Wall. The Romans also brought us their much better laws, technology, and political system of equality. All new citizens of Rome were  more equal, women had more rights, and even servants/slaves had more rights under the Roman system then they did in the Western European ones. So the Romans consolidated their failing political system under a similar religious one called the Roman Catholic Church. The concept was the same. Centralized power in Rome, the belief in one God, and a united land. Pagans understood this importance of unity and equality and created a system of Celtic Christianity. Many Irish pagan beliefs were woven into Christianity. But now that we Pagans have taken the most important aspects of Christianity as our own. Unity of One God (The Divine God/dess within all things), One Land, A United Kingdom, A United States, and a European Union, and one King, the United Nations and the President of each Nation, we must now cast aside the worst of Christianity. Christianity is based on the sacrifice of the innocent so that we are no longer responsible for our actions. I say no. We shall take responsibility for everything we do and we shall be come as gods.

Response:

So I say that when the Romans came to Western Europe they kicked our asses for several reasons. The most vital reason was the belief of one god, one land, and one king. We were of several gods, several lands, and several chiefs. That made it easy for Rome to put our backs to Hadrian’s Wall.

The Romans were not xtians or even monotheists at that time.  Ceasar origianlly went to outer gaul to fight the Hellveti who were crossing inner gaul ( which was a roman provence) to reach outer gaul ( which was not). Ceasar decided to kill them all.  One reason that he did this was because the Hellveti had sacked Rome about 50 years previous to that.  It was payback, it was expansion, and it was good military sense.  They killed hundreds of thousands of Hellveti, but they didn’t get them all.  He chased the remnents into outer gaul and established Roman encampments throughout it.  He had Celtic allies in this, he had Celtic enemies in this.  The Celts had been fighting each other for land for centuries. He made a foray into Britain at the end of this campaign.  He didn’t stay long.  Claudius is the emperor who conquered Britain.  By that time France ( outer gaul) had been pacified.  It would be several hundred years later, before Constintine accepted xtianity as the official Roman religion.  By that time, the Romans had withdrawn from Britain……and left a pacified and Romanized country to the mercy of the Saxon invasions. The success of Xtianity is linked to nation building.  All of the major religions are successful for that same reason. The Romans also brought us their much better laws, technology, and political system of equality. All new citizens of Rome were  more equal, women had more rights, and even servants/slaves had more rights under the Roman system then they did in the Western European ones.

In regarding the Celts, the Romans had more law covering every aspect of life.  BTW, the reason that the Romans outlawed the Druid class, was because they practiced human sacrifice, and that was one of the few religious practices that the Romans absolutely would not accept. Without exception. So the Romans consolidated their failing political system under a similar religious one called the Roman Catholic Church. The concept was the same. Centralized power in Rome, the belief in one God, and a united land.

When the empire split capitols, it was essentially dead.  The east fell under the influence of Persian ideas, the West went another way. Pagans understood this importance of unity and equality and created a system of Celtic Christianity. Many Irish pagan beliefs were woven into Christianity.

This is a weighty subject, and I doubt if you want to hear me go on and on. But now that we Pagans have taken the most important aspects of Christianity as our own. Unity of One God (The Divine God/dess within all things), One Land, A United Kingdom, A United States, and a European Union, and one King, the United Nations and the President of each Nation, we must now cast aside the worst of Christianity.

Nation building?  If you strip these ideas down to their absolute essentials, AND link them up to a military or political force that provides a nuts and bolts unifying force….you could come up with a global religion….however, you will always have an underlying, if not separate, matrix of culture and folk belife that will color all of the Religion’s expression.  Back to your example of the Irish Church. All over the world, the underlying folk belife will either color ( wildly), or co exist side by side with the official religion….and you will never have a global religion, until you have a global culture.  Global culture is MUCH tougher to achive. Most religions give the average person no guide for living in their world. Most cosmologies are REMOTE in their structure.  People don’t want remote cosmologies.  You will note the rise of fundamentalism all over the world because of that very fact.  Many pagans are attracted to "paganism" because its cosmologies are immediate……they are immediate because these pagans are converts, and converts have fervor.  If these principles of religion become remote, fervor is lost.  Adherents of fundamentalist religons tend to worship often, group together in tight cells, churches if you wish, to refresh their fervor and commitment to a world view.  In a dispariate world ( culturally and religiously) these fundamentalists tend to stick out more than at any other time. Christianity is based on the sacrifice of the innocent so that we are no longer responsible for our actions. I say no. We shall take responsibility for everything we do and we shall be come as gods.

Heh.  Very Gnostic.  Thanks for an interesting post, Ren. Pip

Response:

Pip typed, "The success of Xtianity is linked to nation building.  All of the major religions are successful for that same reason." Interesting comments about why Romans outlawed Druidism. During the invasion of Western Europe Rome was a secular empire that allowed many religions but subjected those religions to their laws. Interesting that the U.S. and U.K. does the same thing. One of the reasons that the mystery religion of Mythras and Jesu were so popular with Roman soldiers is because of it’s secular characteristics and it’s democratic flavor. People were considered equal which Roman soldiers who were wealthy land owners, merchants, or an even lower class of men came together to fight also as equals.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pip typed, "The success of Xtianity is linked to nation building.  All of the major religions are successful for that same reason." Interesting comments about why Romans outlawed Druidism. During the invasion of Western Europe Rome was a secular empire that allowed many religions but subjected those religions to their laws. Interesting that the U.S. and U.K. does the same thing. One of the reasons that the mystery religion of Mythras and Jesu were so popular with Roman soldiers is because of it’s secular characteristics and it’s democratic flavor. People were considered equal which Roman soldiers who were wealthy land owners, merchants, or an even lower class of men came together to fight also as equals.

Mithras was the god of choice of the legions.  I think this is the main reason that the myth of Jesus birth, day of death, and manner of death, replicates that of the god Mithras.  It pretty obvious that there was a major grafting to the Jesus myth. By the time that Marcus Aurelius ws emporor, the roman soldier was pretty much a slave.  Only the very wealthiest in the legions could own estates. and soldiers called up to serve often LOST their land to officers because they couldn’t pay the taxes with their small wages. Roman soldiers were considered property of the state.  They ALL had SPQR tattooed on them.  During the conquest of Britain, Romans recorded that the troops examined the dead Celts with great curiosity because of their Celtic tattoos, simply because to the common Roman soldier, their own tattoos were a mark of slavery and they didn’t much like them.  The common Roman soldier was landless.  They lived with their wives and children  in the field. Their families were part of the thousands of camp followers that went on campaign with them.  They were paid by their generals and were loyal to them, not to the empire.  That is how the emperors came to power thru the army alone. Xtianity has an interesting early history.  While the empire was still pagan, an imperial govenor in greece, has a case argued in front of him by a female slave, simply because she was high in the christian movement and had the status among christians to do so.  The govenor had to decide if he would hear this case simply because to have a slave arguing it was unheard of. Xtianity changed many things socially, before it became the absolute creature of the state, and lost any "light" that it may have had. It is interesting to speculate what it might have become, had things been different. Pip

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Question:

looking for a site that translates things into arabic, im getting a tatoo in arabic and want to see how it looks thanks

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pinupspice wants: looking for a site that translates things into arabic, im getting a tatoo in arabic and want to see how it looks thanks

    Considering the plethora of kanji sites online, im sure if you used a SEARCH ENGINE you can find some resources.      It sounds like you dont know the language though, so what relevance is it to you? (just something to think about)      From the arabic ive seen, its quite detailed and i doubt many tattoo artists have experience with it, so id make sure you had a good quility laser print of your text and possibly a textbook for refrence.       Take Care,            Kelli

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pinupspice wrote looking for a site that translates things into arabic

http://www.bmeworld.com/rebekah/dictionaries.html there’s a link there to the "a web of online dictionaries."  i think arabic and islamic dictionaries are listed in there. ~ rebekah http://www.bmeworld.com/rebekah/reasked-home.html "The glass is always half-empty. And cracked. And I just cut my lip on it. And chipped a tooth."   janeane garafolo AOL now has kill files for online readers

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looking for a site that translates things into arabic, im getting a tatoo in arabic and want to see how it looks

I ask this every time someone wants something like this: Why do you want a tattoo where you have no idea what it means? Do you have a cultural or social tie to arabic culture or have a comprehension as to what the tattoo may MEAN outside of just the words you choose? Or it is just…    …you think it looks COOL?         Shannon BME: Body Modification Ezine                 http://www.BME.FreeQ.com/

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: I ask this every time someone wants something like this: : : Why do you want a tattoo where you have no idea what it means? : Do you have a cultural or social tie to arabic culture or have a : comprehension as to what the tattoo may MEAN outside of just the words you : choose? My thoughts exactly.   The thing which is very curious is "why not in the language of people around you"?  Why are these people afraid to state what is "Deeply meaningful" to them in the manner most likely to be understood? I think many people are ambivalent about courage and committment.   Tattoos end up embodying both the courage and committment (saying anything at all in a committed way) and between ambivalence and fear (using cryptic means, getting the image smaller than they end up wanting, projecting fear into fear of infection and so on). Geoffrey

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shannon wrote I ask this every time someone wants something like this: Why do you want a tattoo where you have no idea what it means? Do you have a cultural or social tie to arabic culture or have a comprehension as to what the tattoo may MEAN outside of just the words you choose? Or it is just…   …you think it looks COOL?

NOT a challenge, just a question. what’s wrong with choosing another language because one thinks that the letters are more attractive than the letters of one’s own language (in other words, looks cool)? ~ rebekah http://www.bmeworld.com/rebekah/reasked-home.html "The glass is always half-empty. And cracked. And I just cut my lip on it. And chipped a tooth."   janeane garafolo AOL now has kill files for online readers

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: NOT a challenge, just a question. : what’s wrong with choosing another language because one thinks that the letters : are more attractive than the letters of one’s own language (in other words, : looks cool)? Nothing wrong with it.   However, it is always an interesting question to ask, "Why"? Every choice has a reason, whether or not it is concious. If someone has something to say, why say it in a language nobody, including yourself, understands? If someone does not know enough about another culture to understand some very basic words, they obviously do not really understand that culture. It’s reasonable to think that their beliefs are disjointed or distorted with that shortage of knowledge.   So … the choice is interesting. Why Arabic?  Why Japanese, or Chinese?  Why not Myan or Cherokee or  High German? Does arabic or japanese make it tougher in their minds? Like I said, nothing wrong, just why? Geoffrey

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G My thoughts exactly.   The thing which is very curious is "why not in the G language of people around you"?  Why are these people afraid to state what G is "Deeply meaningful" to them in the manner most likely to be understood?         what pisses me off is when people get some stupid kanji for some stupid word, & the reason they state is that they don’t want everyone on the street to know what it means. & then whenever someone asks, they immediately tell what it means. WHAT THE HELL? lish 32.1% / 32

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: what’s wrong with choosing another language because one thinks that : the letters : are more attractive than the letters of one’s own language (in other : words, looks cool)? Nothing wrong with it.   However, it is always an interesting question to ask, "Why"? <snip Why Arabic?  Why Japanese, or Chinese?  Why not Myan or Cherokee or High German? Does arabic or japanese make it tougher in their minds?

That’s something you should ask that particular person – maybe he likes some aspects arabic culture or something.    Personally, I’ve always liked the Inuit and would like to get something in Inuit (the langage that the Inuit speak) tattooed. Its interesting to note that written Inuit did not exist before europeans got to america – it was a purely oral language. As to why I like the Inuit, it’s probably from living in Canada, so close to the great white north. Speaking of Canada and the Inuit, did you know they just got their own Territory, named Nunavut, north of Quebec and Ontario. To commemorate, the 2$ coin will be changed to "The Drum Dance".   Ok, I seem to have trailed way off-topic now. My point is that getting a tattoo in a foreign langage shows respect to the culture that uses it and _should_ encourage the person to learn more about that culture. (Nothing guarantees that they won’t stay ignorant, but its a good opportunity to go to the library and learn). Ziko Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : NOT a challenge, just a question. : what’s wrong with choosing another language because one thinks that the letters : are more attractive than the letters of one’s own language (in other words, : looks cool)? Nothing wrong with it.   However, it is always an interesting question to ask, "Why"? Every choice has a reason, whether or not it is concious. If someone has something to say, why say it in a language nobody, including yourself, understands? If someone does not know enough about another culture to understand some very basic words, they obviously do not really understand that culture. It’s reasonable to think that their beliefs are disjointed or distorted with that shortage of knowledge.   So … the choice is interesting. Why Arabic?  Why Japanese, or Chinese?  Why not Myan or Cherokee or  High German?

Just as a thought, I’m having mine done in japanese because I study That’s my reason for it anyway! Isaura

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NOT a challenge, just a question. what’s wrong with choosing another language because one thinks that the letters are more attractive than the letters of one’s own language (in other words, looks cool)?

There’s more to words than the shapes. Any meaningful word has a cultural and social history behind it that forms it’s nuances. Being bilingual, I understand that when I say the same phrase in English and German, they have different meanings. English and German are very similar historically — when you talk about attempting to translate, usually unprofessionally, English into Arabic or Japanese, meanings and deeper messages can shift drastically.         Shannon BME: Body Modification Ezine                 http://www.BME.FreeQ.com/

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I have been a lurker for a bit and just had to comment on this one. I have two tattoos in kanji on my body. I love them both. The reason I had them done in a language other than the one I speak is two fold. First, as a Taoist, they have specific religious meaning when in kanji. Second, I like not having everyone around me know what I feel or who I am. My tattoos are a part of both of those. Just as I don’t expose some of my other more interesting facets of me personality to those I don’t wish to.  It simply gives the option. In addition, I happen to think that kanji is beautiful. Perhaps the author feels the same about Arabic. Just my opinion Lynda

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Any meaningful word has a cultural and social history behind it that forms it’s nuances. Being bilingual, I understand that when I say the same phrase in English and German, they have different meanings. English and German are very similar historically — when you talk about attempting to translate, usually unprofessionally, English into Arabic or Japanese, meanings and deeper messages can shift drastically.

That’s certainly true for phrases or expressions, for example : "Ciel, mon mari!" would translate to "Sky, my husband!" if someone didn’t know that "ciel" can be used as an interjection in french. However, for single words (say liberty, courage or other words that people probably tattoo) I’m not sure the meanings could be significantly altered by translation. Of course I only speak French and English, two languages that are very close to one another (40% of english words are derived from french), so I would like the input of someone who’s bilingual in both english and japanese or arabic or another much different language. P.S. Have fun with crappy translations – play with www.altavista.com ’s automatic translation feature. Feynmann Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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If one went by this train of thought (ie. only getting something that they are culturally or socially bound to), then many of the tattoo artists we see today would be busking in the street. For example, celtic tattoos would be reserved to those who are of that heritage, as would tribal tatoos, and japanese/oriental art, and so on. So, when put in that context, the argument doesnt make a ton of sense. Sometimes you have to ask yourself the shallow but pointful question "willl it Look good?" and base your decision solely on that. Chances are, if you think it looks good, its there for life.         I encourage you to experiment with other cultural symbols for the sake of variety, even if ‘beauty’ in arabic script is the equivalent of ‘one-eyed manatee’ in the english language. People will think its unique, and isnt that the whole point? Efe this is my first ever post to this group, sorry if its lacking "Consistency is the hobgoblin of a small mind." –some inconsistent fool

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<snip some this is my first ever post to this group, sorry if its lacking

*Welcome Did you see the faq’s appearing every now and then? Feel free to check for fun and guidance: Do you care joining RAB for SETI? Corine A man generally has two reasons for doing a thing. One that sounds good, and a real one.   –J.Pierpoint Morgan "Atheism is a non-prophet organization"  from Twisted Sayings.

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  Personally, I’ve always liked the Inuit and would like to get something in Inuit (the langage that the Inuit speak) tattooed. Its interesting to note that written Inuit did not exist before europeans got to america – it was a purely oral language.

I really like the twist this puts on the tattoo! Inuit, it’s probably from living in Canada, so close to the great white north. Speaking of Canada and the Inuit, did you know they just got their own Territory, named Nunavut, north of Quebec and Ontario. To commemorate, the 2$ coin will be changed to "The Drum Dance".

Yeah, but it has virtually no representation in government. It’s beautiful there though… If I thought my girlfriend would survive it, I’d seriously consider moving there!         Shannon BME: Body Modification Ezine                 http://www.BME.FreeQ.com/

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that’s like questioning everyone who pierces their nostril or has a facial tattoo or for that matter ( no offense meant ) but for every dragonfly out there on someone who doesn’t raise them or have them as pets. i thought it all comes down to you, me etc. if she wants a kanji tattoo that barely means "individuality" that’s as unique as a body suit of scales or puzzle pieces. to each their own. if she later decides it sucks or doesn’t hold the meaning it once did- it can be covered or removed. if a labret piercing only looked cool and held no meaning in other cultures who would still get them. if every tattoo you have tells your story, who cares if no one wants to read it. it’s mine. scott- just told some guy my sleeve doesn’t mean i’m a diver and my stars don’t mean i like astronomy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I ask this every time someone wants something like this: : : Why do you want a tattoo where you have no idea what it means? : Do you have a cultural or social tie to arabic culture or have a : comprehension as to what the tattoo may MEAN outside of just the words you : choose? My thoughts exactly.   The thing which is very curious is "why not in the language of people around you"?  Why are these people afraid to state what is "Deeply meaningful" to them in the manner most likely to be understood? I think many people are ambivalent about courage and committment.   Tattoos end up embodying both the courage and committment (saying anything at all in a committed way) and between ambivalence and fear (using cryptic means, getting the image smaller than they end up wanting, projecting fear into fear of infection and so on). Geoffrey

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"Ciel, mon mari!"

*Ce qui m’a bien fait sourire car cela fait une paye que je n’avais pas entendu cette expression…. Cela me rappelle les cabarets et operettes de mon enfance, merci! Corine A man generally has two reasons for doing a thing. One that sounds good, and a real one.   –J.Pierpoint Morgan "Atheism is a non-prophet organization"  from Twisted Sayings.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  shannon wrote  I ask this every time someone wants something like this:  Why do you want a tattoo where you have no idea what it means?  Do you have a cultural or social tie to arabic culture or have a  comprehension as to what the tattoo may MEAN outside of just the words you  choose?  Or it is just…     …you think it looks COOL?  NOT a challenge, just a question.  what’s wrong with choosing another language because one thinks that the letters  are more attractive than the letters of one’s own language (in other words,  looks cool)?

If you don’t know what it means (or have only a vague idea of what it means) you might run into problems when you do find out.  Tattoo removal is rather costly. — Larisa Migachyov           http://www.stanford.edu/~lvm

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However, for single words (say liberty, courage or other words that people probably tattoo) I’m not sure the meanings could be significantly altered by translation.

Don’t bet on that! You’re talking about very charged words. I guarantee you that liberty means one thing to a Canadian, something else to the average America, something else to someone from the Free State of Texas, something else to a Brit, something else to someone with Norse ancestry, and something else to someone from Japan. Words like honour, strength, courage, etc. all vary GREATLY regionally even among speakers of the same language!         Shannon BME: Body Modification Ezine                 http://www.BME.FreeQ.com/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Any meaningful word has a cultural and social history behind it that  forms it’s nuances. Being bilingual, I understand that when I say the  same phrase in English and German, they have different meanings.  English and German are very similar historically — when you talk about  attempting to translate, usually unprofessionally, English into Arabic  or Japanese, meanings and deeper messages can shift drastically.  That’s certainly true for phrases or expressions, for example :  "Ciel, mon mari!" would translate to "Sky, my husband!" if someone  didn’t know that "ciel" can be used as an interjection in french.  However, for single words (say liberty, courage or other words that  people probably tattoo) I’m not sure the meanings could be significantly  altered by translation. Of course I only speak French and English, two  languages that are very close to one another (40% of english words are  derived from french), so I would like the input of someone who’s  bilingual in both english and japanese or arabic or another much  different language.

Sure.  The simple truth is that no word has an exact translation – the translation may be nearly exact, but the connotations of the word will be very different in language X vs. language Y.  I am bilingual in English and Russian.  These are much closer together than English and Japanese, and yet there still are little untranslatable concepts, kind of like linguistic ‘in-jokes’ that the non-native speaker just doesn’t get.  As a simple example, the English word "party" has no direct translation into Russian.  The Russian word "mir" means not only ‘peace’, but ‘world’.  If you were to translate the English phrase ‘do you respect me?’ into Russian, you would get something that will be interpreted, by the native speaker, as ‘do you want to get drunk with me?’.  As I said, tattoo at your own risk.  The words of any language have a wealth of connotations that a non-native speaker does not understand and will never understand. I’m learning Sanskrit now; just how does one translate all the connotations of ‘kshatriya’?  Is there a one-word translation?  There isn’t. <I hope to God this will not spark an epidemic of Sanskrit tattoos among the unintelligent; let’s hope none of them read RAB Larisa Migachyov           http://www.stanford.edu/~lvm

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CR *Ce qui m’a bien fait sourire car cela fait une paye que je n’avais pas entendu CR cette expression…. CR Cela me rappelle les cabarets et operettes de mon enfance, merci!         je vends une petit enfant avec mon mama au quains de la rue.         i have no idea what you said. that’s the only french i know. lish 32.1% / 32

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i have no idea what you said.

*Unfortunately this also happens even if use more or less correct english…. Corine A man generally has two reasons for doing a thing. One that sounds good, and a real one.   –J.Pierpoint Morgan "Atheism is a non-prophet organization"  from Twisted Sayings.

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that’s like questioning everyone who pierces their nostril or has a facial tattoo or for that matter ( no offense meant ) but for every dragonfly out there on someone who doesn’t raise them or have them as pets.

Hrmph. I see the difference in the fact that lettering always has an inherent meaning while pictures of animals etc. can mean something different to every person looking at them. Besides, my parents have a pond which is where I regularly see (or saw, they’re moving) the dragonfly that I got tattooed. So there. Pet keeping in its ideal form Nina — C’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot.                         Louis Pasteur http://members.xoom.com/critterwoman

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Yeah, but it has virtually no representation in government. It’s beautiful there though… If I thought my girlfriend would survive it, I’d seriously consider moving there!         Shannon

Hey Shannon, do you still have the Israeli girlfriend? If so, I seriously doubt she would survive the cold of northern Canada. I brought my Israeli bf to Maine in November, and it was a bit chilly for him. You never know though! —   School of Physics and Astronomy, Tel Aviv University                            http://albert.tau.ac.il/~melissa/         Anyone who has never made a mistake has never          tried anything new.  – Albert Einstein  

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Question:

DA, those were prison tattoos you saw on the guy’s arms.  He may not even be a racist, but they often feel they have to choose sides in the joint.  There are doctors in California who will remove them in return for so many hours of community service. M | | |But if you are so eager to visit Mexico, why not simply stay in Southern Calif, |and let Mexico come to you? | |You act like there are no Mexicans in N. California. You live in the |Central Valley right? I read an article that many Mexicans are now |moving to Oregon. There are many in Nevada, and more are moving to the |Reno area. There was a growing Mexican population in Nashville, TV |when I left. It’s not just a Texas and S. California thing. | |Myself, I resent having to pay $500 bucks to register my pick-up. | |Well, we can all agree that Cali. reg. fees are outrageous. But that |doesn’t make it wrong to register your car. they just ought to lower |the price. I had to pay almost a grand in late reg fees when I brought |my car to California. | | |As for yourself, when you run into "Smog Check II" related problems, you |might all of a sudden get a little more "conservative!" | |When does this go into effect? Although it would hurt me, I do think |it’s unfair that people outside of the 5 S. Cal counties have to pay |the same smog tax burdens as we do. It’s not fair for people in |Humboldt county to be paying the same for air quality as people in Los |Angeles and Riverside Counties. That’s like asking one of the lower |desert counties to pay the same tax as they do in Homboldt for some |kind of redwood taxes or something. They should localize things a bit. |But in the meantime, being a student that doesn’t make much money yet, |I’m not going to complain too much. | | |You’re really stretching things a bit when you paint  those that bomb abortion | mills, (there are very few) with the same brush as you do "conservatives." | |Well, they are on the right. Their views certainly don’t come from the |left. | | |Myself, I get a little frustrated at left-wing callers to talk-shows that |always "feel," but never "think," and never have any facts to tell others |about. | |If you are looking for more factual and well-documented leftist ideas, |then ask university professors. | | |Actually, many do first become open to racialist ideas for emotional reasons. | |For many, it was the LA riots of ‘92.  Some realized that the same thing that |happened to Reginald Denny could have happened to them.  Many found it |especially repulsive when they saw the video, and realized that almost |killed Denny were not doing so out of anger- but instead were having fun, dancing |and "high fiving" each other. | |These happened to be 4 scumbags, that’s a stupid reason to become a |racialist over and blame black America over those four. If that’s ok, |then why not justify angry feelings toward white America with the |Jasper dragging? Or the "Greaseman’s" callous and sickening comment |about it? | | |Others began taking racial nationalism seriously the day of the verdict in the |OJ Simpson trial.  Not because he was acquitted, but because of he behavior of |blacks that celebrated his acquittal.  Many made it quite clear that they were |not celebrating because they believe Simpson was falsely accused; but rather |because they were glad that he was guilty and got away with it. | |So it seems you are willing to trust the media when they say something |you agree with. Of course the camera reports of blacks celebrating and |whites lamenting were a product of media sensationalism. To make |everyone look sharply divided makes for good ratings. Showing the |majority of people who just went about their business after the |verdict is boring news. Like I’ve said before, the day the verdict was |announced, a couple white friends of mine swung by to pick me up and |we went to the beach. We may have mentioned one word about it and |never again. I don’t think most black people were jumping up and down |cheering. I do think it was a great stain on the credibility of black |America that most thought he was "not guilty." But remember, not long |after the trial, the polls showed that most blacks felt he is guilty. | |Also, in the case of Reginald Denny, the sensational media kept |playing the clip of the four that beat him, but did they keep playing |the clip of the black preacher that saved him from the attack? At |least my fav talk show host did the right thing and interviewed him on |his tv show. The positive people were given little attention. | | |But we do ourselves a disservice when we act on pure emotion.  Those that do so |are likely to be tempted to do foolish things such as commit crimes against |blacks, Mexicans or others, or engage in activity that even though might be |legal, makes them appear foolish. | |Yep. As long as there are skinheads, Big Dons and Crusaders around, |white nationalism will never be taken seriously. To be honest, I do |think white nationalism would have some potential to be taken |seriously by the mainstream if everyone in the movement expressed |themselves more like you without the epithets and such. But since |there are so many true idiots calling themselves "white racialists" I |don’t think it presents any threat in the near future. | |Notice how one rarely sees skinheads over 25.  Many return to school, get |jobs, but still have their racialist views.  You might go to school with |some, work with others, and have no idea. | |I bet. I guess I’ll have to keep an eye out for those Celtic tattoos. |Whenever I see a white person with tattoos, I always take a close look |to see if there’s anything racist tatooed on them. I was at the |supermarket a few weeks ago and saw a white guy with a marine type |haircut, dressed a lot like a Mexican "cholo" with his pants sagging |and all. He had tattoos and I walked by to take a closer look. On one |arm, was tattoed "white" and on the other arm "pride." But so long as |they aren’t bothering me, I’ll leave them alone, even though I think |these types are disgusting. | | |All "moderates" seem to do is watch the TV, try to figure out what is |fashionable, and stick to the "party line," meaning whatever is fashionable |at the time. | |Nothing is further from the truth. Maybe if you aren’t busy on a |weekday from 9-noon, you should click here: | |http://abcradio.concentric.net/cgi/audio_rotate.cgi?1=kabc&2=abcradio… m/live/live85.ra | |and listen to Dennis Prager, a staunch self-avowed moderate and |probably one of the most intelligent and wisest people you’ll hear in |the media. He cetainly has the guts to speak his mine and he hates |television too! Nothing like you describe above. I am a moderate as |well, and what you said above doesn’t describe me. You may also want |to check out www.dennisprager.com and maybe you’ll find something on |moderism. | | |Are you sure that your rationale isn’t simply because you hate the |idea of all these "mud people" possibly moving next door to you? | |Where I live now, that is really the least of my concerns. | |You live in the Central Valley right? Why is this not a concern? | |Examine your feelings, Murdock, do you think you are better than non-whites? | |"Better" in what aspect?  As a basketball player?  In general, I have more |in common with other whites, than with non-whites.  Whether one is talking about |individuals, or races, the concept of "better" is one that is quite subjective. | |Many white racialist think they are better simply *because* they are |white. "Ian McKinney" himself a few weeks ago said that all the blacks |of Africa aren’t worth the life of even one white. That’s what I mean. | |– | |regards, |The Devil’s Advocate | |"Your Warrant Is In Question" |   http://surf.to/advocate |

Response:

I certainly never said that Mexican immigration was not a problem in other states.

I would qualify the sentence with "illegal" Mexican immigration. I have nothing against an immigrant per se because they are of Mexican origin. If they are illegal, I have a problem with that. Last tim I was in Oregon, while fishing I met with a contractor that was upset with the problem.  He wanted to avoid hiring illegal aliens, yet they always seemed to have access to "immigration rights" lawyers, (taxpayer funded) that had access to the federal governments’s "Equality Police," to force him too.

Are you sure you have the facts straight? Let me get this clear, He was *forced* by the *government* to hire Mexicans that are *illegally* in the country? And the government *knew* they were here *illegally*? Just out of curiosity, when you angry white males get together, do you ever talk about anything positive? In the Southeast, Mexican illegal aliens compete with blacks for jobs in the poultry and aquaculture industries.

Or hear in L.A. Yet, it is in the southwestern states where the Mexicans have the greatest political influence.

So as a white seperatist, your solution would be to simply hand the SW back over to Mexico? And while we’re on the subject, exactly what parts of the country will be handed out to which race? Where will be the designated Asian territory? The black territory? The white terriority? The Jewish territory? I assume you’ll be giving California to Mexico. You’re not making much sense.  How does the giving more money to the government create less smog,

Penalizing people for driving smog machines will give them incentive to repair their cars. People that drive SUVs in smog prone areas should be hit hard with tax I think(and don’t tell me that I make a good case for seperation!). Given that smog has been dramatically reduced in Los Angeles over the past few decades, would you not say that there we are succeeding? Without regulation, I wouldn’t leave it up to the private sector to care for our lungs. If you are looking for more factual and well-documented leftist ideas, then ask university professors. University professors such as Angela Davis or Leonard Jefferies?  Come on, you can usually do better than that!

And surely you can do better than strawman arguments. What about Henry Louis Gates III and Cornel West? No one ever supported the murder of Robert Byrd.

I wasn’t saying that. Your point is that the beating of Reginald Denny was a wakeup call for many whites. But for that matter, the Jasper dragging might as well be a wakeup call for blacks. Personally, I don’t think the behvior of either groups of perpetrators is representative of their races. So to me, both incidents were abberrations and have no effect on my life whatsoever.  In fact, even Dr. Pierce, on a broadcast of American Dissident Voices, (heard at http://www.natvan.com) said that if those responsible for dragging Byrd behind the pickup were soldiers in any hypothetical white army, they should be shot for such an act.

The same guy that says Jewish media moguls ought to be shot and that white women with black boyfriends deserve to be killed? Now you lambaste Leonard Jeffries and Angela Davis but consider Pierce to have some kind of credibility??? Interesting! In contrast, following the LA Riots, representatives elected by the black community condoned the riots, and instead  referred to them as an "insurrection."

Well, you called the Clinton attack on Kosovo murder while most whites that support Clinton and his attack would have disagreed. In the aftermath of the LA Riots, it was "Maxine the Magpie" Waters that brought gang members in front of Congress, and proclaimed them to be "community leaders," and it was her who disrupted the work of rebuilding with her bull-horn, and police excorted mobs, chanting "No Justice, No Peace."  

And she’s an idiot in my opinion. BTW, many racialists have no tattoos.  Myself, I consider getting tattoed to be a foolish thing to do.

Same here. Especially for women. Prager’s program has recently been picked up by a Sacramento station.  I have tried to give him a chance, but find him quite boring.  I find he rarely discusses anything that I have not heard of through other sources weeks before, and find his spending much time talking about himself and his family quite dull.

Maybe you heard him on a bad day. I first started listening him in Atlanta when he had his tv show. I thought it was boring because there were no "fireworks." But I kept listening and started enjoying his show more and more. He did turn me from a black nationalist into a moderate, so that says a lot. I say keep listening, his is the kind of show that grows on you, and offers common sense wisdom and opinions that you don’t hear in the mainstream. And I also like his show because he not only talks about politics and social issues, but also about personal issues such as what makes a good marriage, how to raise kids, adultry, religion and things like that. Because he talks about many personal issues, his show probably attracts more female listeners than most middle-American, angry, politics-saturated, right-wing talk radio. Maybe that’s not what middle-American talk radio is about, I don’t live out there, but it’s the impression that I get. Just like down here, a lot of the talk radio is Hollywood saturated with rumors of what actress is dating who, opinions on movies etc, etc. I certainly would listen to a talk-show host that I disagreed with, if they could at least discuss items in the news that are not covered by the "lamestream media," which is what many wish to hear from AM talk-radio.

Even if it were black nationalist radio? I think there was at one time a militant black talk show in Milwaukee. I don’t know if it’s still on though. Maybe give Ken Hamblin (http://www.hamblin.com) a chance.  I find that he is on top of the days current events, and will discuss racially sensitive topics that most white talk-show hosts are afraid to.  He will also allow callers to discuss any topic, or express any point of view, as long as they are civil.

I was surprised to see that he is black. Would you object to having this man for a neighbor? Who would you rather live next to in your white nationalist country, Hamblin or Phil Donohue? You might like Larry Elder, he is a black libertarian. — regards, The Devil’s Advocate "Your Warrant Is In Question"    http://surf.to/advocate

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So it seems you are willing to trust the media when they say something you agree with. Of course the camera reports of blacks celebrating and whites lamenting were a product of media sensationalism. To make everyone look sharply divided makes for good ratings. Showing the majority of people who just went about their business after the verdict is boring news. Like I’ve said before, the day the verdict was announced, a couple white friends of mine swung by to pick me up and we went to the beach. We may have mentioned one word about it and never again. I don’t think most black people were jumping up and down cheering. I do think it was a great stain on the credibility of black America that most thought he was "not guilty." But remember, not long after the trial, the polls showed that most blacks felt he is guilty. The fact that these Whites are hanging around with you indicates to me

they are deracinated or possibly self-haters anyway. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were rooting

for OJ. Nonetheless, almost every White person I ran into immediately after the verdict was

outraged. When I walked into the local video store the owner immediately started ranting about

"that goddamn nigger – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – jury." My own parents, who usually don’t care about such matters, called me to express their anger and to say from now on they would not buy any product with a Black face on it. Also, in the case of Reginald Denny, the sensational media kept playing the clip of the four that beat him, but did they keep playing the clip of the black preacher that saved him from the attack? Oh, you mean like they did with Rodney King? Notice how one rarely sees skinheads over 25.  Many return to school, get jobs, but still have their racialist views.  You might go to school with some, work with others, and have no idea. I bet. I guess I’ll have to keep an eye out for those Celtic tattoos. Watch for the steel-toed shoes too. Many skins who go mainstream still wear Doc Martins. "Better" in what aspect?  As a basketball player?  In general, I have more in common with other whites, than with non-whites.  Whether one is talking about individuals, or races, the concept of "better" is one that is quite subjective. Many white racialist think they are better simply *because* they are white. "Ian McKinney" himself a few weeks ago said that all the blacks of Africa aren’t worth the life of even one white. That’s what I mean. I was thinking of all the discussion in the news about how the US should be interviening in Africa to stop the many wars and ethnic cleansings that occur there. I’m

not willing to expend one White life to stop Blacks from fighting. What do we have to gain from it? They won’t stop anyway. What did we gain in Somalia, except to have dead White soldiers dragged through the streets? Its not White people’s responsibility to fix Black problems either in

Africa or here. One day when you get a bit of sense, you might realise that it is not your responsibility to control the lives of others. In short, you racists will never prevail, so all you pontificating and whining is for naught – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — For White Unity, ipm Western Imperative Network http://www.usaor.net/users/ipm/ Racial Statistics http://pw1.netcom.com/~jna/facts/racestat.htm National Alliance http://www.natvan.com Facts On NATO’s Attacks on Serbia http://www.compuserb.com/ Yggdrasil’s Library http://www.ddc.net/ygg/ R. P. Oliver Website http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/america/–

Response:

The fact that these Whites are hanging around with you indicates to me they are deracinated or possibly self-haters anyway.

 So, any white person that hangs around me is a "self-hater?" Deracinated? That word isn’t even listed in my Merriam-Websters, what the hell does that mean? You are more sick than I thought. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were rooting for OJ.

They weren’t, and neither was I. But my life wasn’t going to come to a standstill over it. Nonetheless, almost every White person I ran into immediately after the verdict was outraged.

Fuck ‘em. When I walked into the local video store the owner immediately started ranting about "that goddamn nigger jury."

And if I’d been there, the redneck would’ve gotten his teeth kicked in. My own parents, who usually don’t care about such matters, called me to express their anger and to say from now on they would not buy any product with a Black face on it.

Well, the apple never falls too far from the tree, or vice versa. Given the stupidity put on display by yourself, I can see you are the product of even dumber inheritance. Of course you all realize that if you bought a one-way ticket to Ireland for good, you won’t have to worry about such problems anymore. Watch for the steel-toed shoes too. Many skins who go mainstream still wear Doc Martins.

Everybody wears Doc Martins, even I have a black pair. I was thinking of all the discussion in the news about how the US should be interviening in Africa to stop the many wars and ethnic cleansings that occur there. I’m not willing to expend one White life to stop Blacks from fighting. What do we have to gain from it? They won’t stop anyway. What did we gain in Somalia, except to have dead White soldiers dragged through the streets?

You know damn well what you meant by the quote, now you’re trying to change the meaning. You were saying that you’d let all the blacks of Africa die if it meant saving one life. I certainly wouldn’t let all whites die to save one black, so why would you not do the same in reverse, if you motive wasn’t raw hatred. Its not White people’s responsibility to fix Black problems either in Africa or here.

Who the hell asked you, fuckwit. — regards, The Devil’s Advocate "Your Warrant Is In Question"    http://surf.to/advocate

Response:

So it seems you are willing to trust the media when they say something you agree with. Of course the camera reports of blacks celebrating and whites lamenting were a product of media sensationalism. To make everyone look sharply divided makes for good ratings. Showing the majority of people who just went about their business after the verdict is boring news. Like I’ve said before, the day the verdict was announced, a couple white friends of mine swung by to pick me up and we went to the beach. We may have mentioned one word about it and never again. I don’t think most black people were jumping up and down cheering. I do think it was a great stain on the credibility of black America that most thought he was "not guilty." But remember, not long after the trial, the polls showed that most blacks felt he is guilty.

The fact that these Whites are hanging around with you indicates to me they are deracinated or possibly self-haters anyway. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were rooting for OJ. Nonetheless, almost every White person I ran into immediately after the verdict was outraged. When I walked into the local video store the owner immediately started ranting about "that goddamn nigger jury." My own parents, who usually don’t care about such matters, called me to express their anger and to say from now on they would not buy any product with a Black face on it. Also, in the case of Reginald Denny, the sensational media kept playing the clip of the four that beat him, but did they keep playing the clip of the black preacher that saved him from the attack?

Oh, you mean like they did with Rodney King? Notice how one rarely sees skinheads over 25.  Many return to school, get jobs, but still have their racialist views.  You might go to school with some, work with others, and have no idea. I bet. I guess I’ll have to keep an eye out for those Celtic tattoos.

Watch for the steel-toed shoes too. Many skins who go mainstream still wear Doc Martins. "Better" in what aspect?  As a basketball player?  In general, I have more in common with other whites, than with non-whites.  Whether one is talking about individuals, or races, the concept of "better" is one that is quite subjective. Many white racialist think they are better simply *because* they are white. "Ian McKinney" himself a few weeks ago said that all the blacks of Africa aren’t worth the life of even one white. That’s what I mean.

I was thinking of all the discussion in the news about how the US should be interviening in Africa to stop the many wars and ethnic cleansings that occur there. I’m not willing to expend one White life to stop Blacks from fighting. What do we have to gain from it? They won’t stop anyway. What did we gain in Somalia, except to have dead White soldiers dragged through the streets? Its not White people’s responsibility to fix Black problems either in Africa or here. — For White Unity, ipm Western Imperative Network http://www.usaor.net/users/ipm/ Racial Statistics http://pw1.netcom.com/~jna/facts/racestat.htm National Alliance http://www.natvan.com Facts On NATO’s Attacks on Serbia http://www.compuserb.com/ Yggdrasil’s Library http://www.ddc.net/ygg/ R. P. Oliver Website http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/america/–

Response:

It is certainly even more foolish to do so in Mexico, where many naive young people have no idea what kind of troubles they can get into, as the laws and customs are not the same as they are in the US. Actually we did get in trouble down there last night. We came back broke after bribing an officer to let us go. Luckily I still had $2.00 to pay for toll. But it was all still fun. Hey, if they can have their fun celebrating Cinco De Mayo in the streets on this side of the border, why not bring the 4th of July down there?

Be careful. The next time you may get into even more trouble. But if you are so eager to visit Mexico, why not simply stay in Southern Calif, and let Mexico come to you? Just consider the draconian Canadian laws, under which one can be fined or imprisoned for non-violently speaking their mind.  Canada also has recently passed a draconian law requiring all privately owned firearms to be registered. Why is having your firearms registered a bad thing? If we have to register our cars, why not register an object that could be used to easily kill people or commit crime?

This is a topic for another thread, and one that would be quite relevant to California at the present time. BTW, there is no law requiring that cars be registered with the federal government.  Most states have now laws requiring that motor vehicles be registered or drivers be licensed if their use/driving is on private property.  There is simply no law in most states requiring that vehicles used on private property be registered, nor any laws against  having one’s 14 year old son/daughter drive it to  run errands around a privately owned ranch. Myself, I resent having to pay $500 bucks to register my pick-up. As for yourself, when you run into "Smog Check II" related problems, you might all of a sudden get a little more "conservative!" A bit to over-generalized. There are quite a few conservatives that feel. Look at the abortion clinic bombers, they sure are emotional. Or even many of your fellow racialist, such as the skinheads, they aren’t too intellectual.

You’re really stretching things a bit when you paint  those that bomb abortion  mills, (there are very few) with the same brush as you do "conservatives." Myself, I get a little frustrated at left-wing callers to talk-shows that always "feel," but never "think," and never have any facts to tell others about. Actually, many do first become open to racialist ideas for emotional reasons. For many, it was the LA riots of ‘92.  Some realized that the same thing that happened to Reginald Denny could have happened to them.  Many found it especially repulsive when they saw the video, and realized that almost killed Denny were not doing so out of anger- but instead were having fun, dancing and "high fiving" each other. Others began taking racial nationalism seriously the day of the verdict in the OJ Simpson trial.  Not because he was acquitted, but because of he behavior of blacks that celebrated his acquittal.  Many made it quite clear that they were not celebrating because they believe Simpson was falsely accused; but rather because they were glad that he was guilty and got away with it. But we do ourselves a disservice when we act on pure emotion.  Those that do so are likely to be tempted to do foolish things such as commit crimes against blacks, Mexicans or others, or engage in activity that even though might be legal, makes them appear foolish. Instead, what they need to do is to educate themselves and others, and to act with discilpine and self control. Notice how one rarely sees skinheads over 25.  Many return to school, get jobs, but still have their racialist views.  You might go to school with some, work with others, and have no idea. Of course there are some intellectual white nationalist, such as a former president of apartheid S. Africa I was reading about who said a lot of things similiar to you. But the intellectual ones are far and few between. In my estimation, it is moderates who think, extremists who feel. And extremists come as liberals and conservatives.

All "moderates" seem to do is watch the TV, try to figure out what is fashionable, and stick to the "party line," meaning whatever is fashionable at the time.   Are you sure that your rationale isn’t simply because you hate the idea of all these "mud people" possibly moving next door to you?

Where I live now, that is really the least of my concerns. Examine your feelings, Murdock, do you think you are better than non-whites?

"Better" in what aspect?  As a basketball player?  In general, I have more in common with other whites, than with non-whites.  Whether one is talking about individuals, or races, the concept of "better" is one that is quite subjective. Would you ever invite a non-white over for dinner? Or take an invitation for one? Would you make any friends or be seen publically socializing with a non-white?

Maybe I have. Regards, HM Western Imperative Network http://www.usaor.net/users/ipm Wake Up or Die http://www.wakeupordie.com Politically Incorrect http://www.sound.net/~fenix/PI-index.html Stormfront http://www.stormfront.org Yggdrasil’s Library http://www.ddc.net/ygg Civil War Two http://www.civilwartwo.com/

Response:

But if you are so eager to visit Mexico, why not simply stay in Southern Calif, and let Mexico come to you? You act like there are no Mexicans in N. California. You live in the Central Valley right? I read an article that many Mexicans are now moving to Oregon. There are many in Nevada, and more are moving to the Reno area. There was a growing Mexican population in Nashville, TV when I left. It’s not just a Texas and S. California thing.

I certainly never said that Mexican immigration was not a problem in other states. Last tim I was in Oregon, while fishing I met with a contractor that was upset with the problem.  He wanted to avoid hiring illegal aliens, yet they always seemed to have access to "immigration rights" lawyers, (taxpayer funded) that had access to the federal governments’s "Equality Police," to force him too. The Mexicans might have known how to speak Enlgish, but they sure knew how to work the system! In the Southeast, Mexican illegal aliens compete with blacks for jobs in the poultry and aquaculture industries. Once across the border, the illegal aliens can quickly jump on airliners and go anywhere in the US, where they not only have their own communities, but "immigration rights" groups to assist them. Yet, it is in the southwestern states where the Mexicans have the greatest political influence. As for yourself, when you run into "Smog Check II" related problems, you might all of a sudden get a little more "conservative!" When does this go into effect? Although it would hurt me, I do think it’s unfair that people outside of the 5 S. Cal counties have to pay the same smog tax burdens as we do. It’s not fair for people in Humboldt county to be paying the same for air quality as people in Los Angeles and Riverside Counties. That’s like asking one of the lower desert counties to pay the same tax as they do in Homboldt for some kind of redwood taxes or something. They should localize things a bit. But in the meantime, being a student that doesn’t make much money yet, I’m not going to complain too much.

You’re not making much sense.  How does the giving more money to the government create less smog, and if that is the case, why should there be a tax to get rid of redwood trees?  :) Of course, in Sacto County, auto registrations fees include an extra two bucks to fund an agency to "fight air pollution."  This bureaacracy does nothing but contract out the work of producing ads telling people to ride busses instead of driving to a private ad agency.  But it is hailed as a way to promote favored minorities! Myself, I get a little frustrated at left-wing callers to talk-shows that always "feel," but never "think," and never have any facts to tell others about. If you are looking for more factual and well-documented leftist ideas, then ask university professors.

University professors such as Angela Davis or Leonard Jefferies?  Come on, you can usually do better than that! Actually, many do first become open to racialist ideas for emotional reasons. For many, it was the LA riots of ‘92.  Some realized that the same thing that happened to Reginald Denny could have happened to them.  Many found it especially repulsive when they saw the video, and realized that almost killed Denny were not doing so out of anger- but instead were having fun, dancing and "high fiving" each other. These happened to be 4 scumbags, that’s a stupid reason to become a racialist over and blame black America over those four. If that’s ok, then why not justify angry feelings toward white America with the Jasper dragging? Or the "Greaseman’s" callous and sickening comment about it?

No one ever supported the murder of Robert Byrd.  In fact, even Dr. Pierce, on a broadcast of American Dissident Voices, (heard at http://www.natvan.com) said that if those responsible for dragging Byrd behind the pickup were soldiers in any hypothetical white army, they should be shot for such an act. In contrast, following the LA Riots, representatives elected by the black community condoned the riots, and instead  referred to them as an "insurrection." In the aftermath of the LA Riots, it was "Maxine the Magpie" Waters that brought gang members in front of Congress, and proclaimed them to be "community leaders," and it was her who disrupted the work of rebuilding with her bull-horn, and police excorted mobs, chanting "No Justice, No Peace."   Also, in the case of Reginald Denny, the sensational media kept playing the clip of the four that beat him, but did they keep playing the clip of the black preacher that saved him from the attack? At least my fav talk show host did the right thing and interviewed him on his tv show. The positive people were given little attention.

That tape recieved very little air-play compared to the one of the arrest of Rodney King.  What received even less, was the full three minutes of that tape, as compared to the edited 90 second version. As for the black preacher that finally took Denny to the hospital, that was commendable.  But what is not mentioned is that no one felt like intervening before Denny was within minutes of death. Denny was not the only one that suffered during the LA Riots just because he was white.  I should say, because he was not black.  There were many other victims too. Notice how one rarely sees skinheads over 25.  Many return to school, get jobs, but still have their racialist views.  You might go to school with some, work with others, and have no idea. I bet. I guess I’ll have to keep an eye out for those Celtic tattoos. Whenever I see a white person with tattoos, I always take a close look to see if there’s anything racist tatooed on them.

Do you really bother to look closely at men’s tattoos?  From what I know of LA, you might get asked for a date doing that! BTW, many racialists have no tattoos.  Myself, I consider getting tattoed to be a foolish thing to do. All "moderates" seem to do is watch the TV, try to figure out what is fashionable, and stick to the "party line," meaning whatever is fashionable at the time. Nothing is further from the truth. Maybe if you aren’t busy on a weekday from 9-noon, you should click here:…. and listen to Dennis Prager, a staunch self-avowed moderate and probably one of the most intelligent and wisest people you’ll hear in the media.

Prager’s program has recently been picked up by a Sacramento station.  I have tried to give him a chance, but find him quite boring.  I find he rarely discusses anything that I have not heard of through other sources weeks before, and find his spending much time talking about himself and his family quite dull. I certainly would listen to a talk-show host that I disagreed with, if they could at least discuss items in the news that are not covered by the "lamestream media," which is what many wish to hear from AM talk-radio. Maybe give Ken Hamblin (http://www.hamblin.com) a chance.  I find that he is on top of the days current events, and will discuss racially sensitive topics that most white talk-show hosts are afraid to.  He will also allow callers to discuss any topic, or express any point of view, as long as they are civil. Regards, HM Western Imperative Network http://www.usaor.net/users/ipm Wake Up or Die http://www.wakeupordie.com Politically Incorrect http://www.sound.net/~fenix/PI-index.html Stormfront http://www.stormfront.org Yggdrasil’s Library http://www.ddc.net/ygg Civil War Two http://www.civilwartwo.com/

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But if you are so eager to visit Mexico, why not simply stay in Southern Calif, and let Mexico come to you?

You act like there are no Mexicans in N. California. You live in the Central Valley right? I read an article that many Mexicans are now moving to Oregon. There are many in Nevada, and more are moving to the Reno area. There was a growing Mexican population in Nashville, TV when I left. It’s not just a Texas and S. California thing. Myself, I resent having to pay $500 bucks to register my pick-up.

Well, we can all agree that Cali. reg. fees are outrageous. But that doesn’t make it wrong to register your car. they just ought to lower the price. I had to pay almost a grand in late reg fees when I brought my car to California. As for yourself, when you run into "Smog Check II" related problems, you might all of a sudden get a little more "conservative!"

When does this go into effect? Although it would hurt me, I do think it’s unfair that people outside of the 5 S. Cal counties have to pay the same smog tax burdens as we do. It’s not fair for people in Humboldt county to be paying the same for air quality as people in Los Angeles and Riverside Counties. That’s like asking one of the lower desert counties to pay the same tax as they do in Homboldt for some kind of redwood taxes or something. They should localize things a bit. But in the meantime, being a student that doesn’t make much money yet, I’m not going to complain too much. You’re really stretching things a bit when you paint  those that bomb abortion mills, (there are very few) with the same brush as you do "conservatives."

Well, they are on the right. Their views certainly don’t come from the left. Myself, I get a little frustrated at left-wing callers to talk-shows that always "feel," but never "think," and never have any facts to tell others about.

If you are looking for more factual and well-documented leftist ideas, then ask university professors. Actually, many do first become open to racialist ideas for emotional reasons. For many, it was the LA riots of ‘92.  Some realized that the same thing that happened to Reginald Denny could have happened to them.  Many found it especially repulsive when they saw the video, and realized that almost killed Denny were not doing so out of anger- but instead were having fun, dancing and "high fiving" each other.

These happened to be 4 scumbags, that’s a stupid reason to become a racialist over and blame black America over those four. If that’s ok, then why not justify angry feelings toward white America with the Jasper dragging? Or the "Greaseman’s" callous and sickening comment about it? Others began taking racial nationalism seriously the day of the verdict in the OJ Simpson trial.  Not because he was acquitted, but because of he behavior of blacks that celebrated his acquittal.  Many made it quite clear that they were not celebrating because they believe Simpson was falsely accused; but rather because they were glad that he was guilty and got away with it.

So it seems you are willing to trust the media when they say something you agree with. Of course the camera reports of blacks celebrating and whites lamenting were a product of media sensationalism. To make everyone look sharply divided makes for good ratings. Showing the majority of people who just went about their business after the verdict is boring news. Like I’ve said before, the day the verdict was announced, a couple white friends of mine swung by to pick me up and we went to the beach. We may have mentioned one word about it and never again. I don’t think most black people were jumping up and down cheering. I do think it was a great stain on the credibility of black America that most thought he was "not guilty." But remember, not long after the trial, the polls showed that most blacks felt he is guilty. Also, in the case of Reginald Denny, the sensational media kept playing the clip of the four that beat him, but did they keep playing the clip of the black preacher that saved him from the attack? At least my fav talk show host did the right thing and interviewed him on his tv show. The positive people were given little attention. But we do ourselves a disservice when we act on pure emotion.  Those that do so are likely to be tempted to do foolish things such as commit crimes against blacks, Mexicans or others, or engage in activity that even though might be legal, makes them appear foolish.

Yep. As long as there are skinheads, Big Dons and Crusaders around, white nationalism will never be taken seriously. To be honest, I do think white nationalism would have some potential to be taken seriously by the mainstream if everyone in the movement expressed themselves more like you without the epithets and such. But since there are so many true idiots calling themselves "white racialists" I don’t think it presents any threat in the near future. Notice how one rarely sees skinheads over 25.  Many return to school, get jobs, but still have their racialist views.  You might go to school with some, work with others, and have no idea.

I bet. I guess I’ll have to keep an eye out for those Celtic tattoos. Whenever I see a white person with tattoos, I always take a close look to see if there’s anything racist tatooed on them. I was at the supermarket a few weeks ago and saw a white guy with a marine type haircut, dressed a lot like a Mexican "cholo" with his pants sagging and all. He had tattoos and I walked by to take a closer look. On one arm, was tattoed "white" and on the other arm "pride." But so long as they aren’t bothering me, I’ll leave them alone, even though I think these types are disgusting. All "moderates" seem to do is watch the TV, try to figure out what is fashionable, and stick to the "party line," meaning whatever is fashionable at the time.  

Nothing is further from the truth. Maybe if you aren’t busy on a weekday from 9-noon, you should click here: http://abcradio.concentric.net/cgi/audio_rotate.cgi?1=kabc&2=abcradio… and listen to Dennis Prager, a staunch self-avowed moderate and probably one of the most intelligent and wisest people you’ll hear in the media. He cetainly has the guts to speak his mine and he hates television too! Nothing like you describe above. I am a moderate as well, and what you said above doesn’t describe me. You may also want to check out www.dennisprager.com and maybe you’ll find something on moderism. Are you sure that your rationale isn’t simply because you hate the idea of all these "mud people" possibly moving next door to you? Where I live now, that is really the least of my concerns.

You live in the Central Valley right? Why is this not a concern? Examine your feelings, Murdock, do you think you are better than non-whites? "Better" in what aspect?  As a basketball player?  In general, I have more in common with other whites, than with non-whites.  Whether one is talking about individuals, or races, the concept of "better" is one that is quite subjective.

Many white racialist think they are better simply *because* they are white. "Ian McKinney" himself a few weeks ago said that all the blacks of Africa aren’t worth the life of even one white. That’s what I mean. — regards, The Devil’s Advocate "Your Warrant Is In Question"    http://surf.to/advocate

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 But Luke, err…Murdock, Oh, what’s this, more of your infamous detective work? LOL! The only thing worse than a dumb negro, is one who THINKS he’s smart.

Roger the postman is such a brainwashed racist that he actually believes he is smarter and better qualified  than DA who is, at his tender age, a qualified IT professional Go figure. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — For White Unity, ipm Western Imperative Network http://www.usaor.net/users/ipm/ Racial Statistics http://pw1.netcom.com/~jna/facts/racestat.htm National Alliance http://www.natvan.com Facts On NATO’s Attacks on Serbia http://www.compuserb.com/ Yggdrasil’s Library http://www.ddc.net/ygg/ R. P. Oliver Website http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/america/

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 But Luke, err…Murdock, Oh, what’s this, more of your infamous detective work? LOL! The only thing worse than a dumb negro, is one who THINKS he’s smart. Actually it was joke you blathering moron, an allusion to Star Wars. I guess you don’t get out too often.

White postal mentality at work – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — regards, The Devil’s Advocate "Your Warrant Is In Question"    http://surf.to/advocate

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Just something to think about while enjoying the BBQ’s, the beer, and the fireworks! They Price they paid, by Gary Hidreth: Have you ever wondered what happended to the 56  men who signed the Declaration of Indepndence? five signers were capture by the British as traitors and tortured before they died.  Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.   Two lost their sons in the Revolutionary Army, another had two sons captured.  Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. What kind of men were they?  Twenty -four were lawyers and jurists. eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners, men of means, well educated.   But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were  captured. Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy.  He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags. Thoomas McKeam was so  hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almmost constantly.  He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding.  His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward. Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton. At the Battlle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters.  He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire.  The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt. Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed.  The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a a few months. John Hart was driven from his wife’s bedside as she was dying .  Their 13 children fled for their lives.  His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste.  For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished.  A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart. Norris and  Livngtston suffered similar fates. Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild eyed, rabble rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education.l  They had security, but they valued liverty more.   Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection ofthe divine providence, we mutually pledge to eacy other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. They gave you and  me a free and independent America.  The history books never told you a lot of what happened in the Revolutionary War.  We didn’t just fight the British. We were British subjects at that tim and we fought our own government!   Perhaps you can now see why our founding fathers had a hatred for standing armies, and allowed through the Second Amendment for everyone to be armed. Frankly, I can’t read this without crying. Some of us take these liberties so much for granted…We shouldn’t. Happy Independence Day, HM Western Imperative Network http://www.usaor.net/users/ipm Wake Up or Die http://www.wakeupordie.com Politically Incorrect http://www.sound.net/~fenix/PI-index.html Stormfront http://www.stormfront.org Yggdrasil’s Library http://www.ddc.net/ygg Civil War Two http://www.civilwartwo.com/

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Frankly, I can’t read this without crying. Some of us take these liberties so much for granted…We shouldn’t.

And you shouldn’t destroy them – as racist advocate.

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Just something to think about while enjoying the BBQ’s, the beer, and the fireworks!

Or getting drunk and partying in Mexico with hordes of other students. Have you ever wondered what happended to the 56  men who signed the Declaration of Indepndence? five signers were capture by the British as traitors and tortured before they died.  Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.   Two lost their sons in the Revolutionary Army, another had two sons captured.  Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War.

Well then you ought to be condeming "Crusader" for saying that he wishes we were still under the Queen. He explicitly said that if he were around 200 years ago, he would have fought for England. Interesting though, that you have no one damning thing to say about this. The silence is deafening from you and your comrades. But let the D.A. make one little post that says I had a racist experience and all of a sudden, I "make a good case for seperation." This is reason # 4,573 that white nationalism is a joke. But Luke, err…Murdock, "I can feel the good in you, you can turn away from the darkside, let go of your hate!" — regards, The Devil’s Advocate "Your Warrant Is In Question"    http://surf.to/advocate

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Frankly, I can’t read this without crying. Some of us take these liberties so much for granted…We shouldn’t. And you shouldn’t destroy them

He should spend plenty of time crying, though. . . .

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 But Luke, err…Murdock,

Oh, what’s this, more of your infamous detective work? LOL! The only thing worse than a dumb negro, is one who THINKS he’s smart. — For White Unity, ipm Western Imperative Network http://www.usaor.net/users/ipm/ Racial Statistics http://pw1.netcom.com/~jna/facts/racestat.htm National Alliance http://www.natvan.com Facts On NATO’s Attacks on Serbia http://www.compuserb.com/ Yggdrasil’s Library http://www.ddc.net/ygg/ R. P. Oliver Website http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/america/

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 But Luke, err…Murdock, Oh, what’s this, more of your infamous detective work? LOL! The only thing worse than a dumb negro, is one who THINKS he’s smart.

Actually it was joke you blathering moron, an allusion to Star Wars. I guess you don’t get out too often. — regards, The Devil’s Advocate "Your Warrant Is In Question"    http://surf.to/advocate

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i’m not sure if being so obviously racist is either very positive or constructive At the beginning and the end of the circle… We are the same… It is the measured span in between where we create our reasons for finding difference. pax

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 But Luke, err…Murdock, Oh, what’s this, more of your infamous detective work? LOL! The only thing worse than a dumb negro, is one who THINKS he’s smart. Actually it was joke you blathering moron, an allusion to Star Wars. I guess you don’t get out too often.

I don’t have time to sit around memorizing lines from stupid Hollywood movies like you obviously do. — For White Unity, ipm Western Imperative Network http://www.usaor.net/users/ipm/ Racial Statistics http://pw1.netcom.com/~jna/facts/racestat.htm National Alliance http://www.natvan.com Facts On NATO’s Attacks on Serbia http://www.compuserb.com/ Yggdrasil’s Library http://www.ddc.net/ygg/ R. P. Oliver Website http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/america/

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I don’t have time to sit around memorizing lines from stupid Hollywood movies like you obviously do.

Oh, yeah…too many Jews in Hollywood. — regards, The Devil’s Advocate "Your Warrant Is In Question"    http://surf.to/advocate

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Just something to think about while enjoying the BBQ’s, the beer, and the fireworks! Or getting drunk and partying in Mexico with hordes of other students.

I would suggest that it is foolish to consume an inmoderate amount of adult beverages outside of one’s own home, or that of a trusted friend. It is certainly even more foolish to do so in Mexico, where many naive young people have no idea what kind of troubles they can get into, as the laws and customs are not the same as they are in the US. Have you ever wondered what happended to the 56  men who signed the Declaration of Indepndence? five signers were capture by the British as traitors and tortured before they died.  Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.   Two lost their sons in the Revolutionary Army, another had two sons captured.  Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. Well then you ought to be condeming "Crusader" for saying that he wishes we were still under the Queen. He explicitly said that if he were around 200 years ago, he would have fought for England.

Absolutely not.  I don’t condemn anyone for saying what they believe, or informing others about their favorite web-sites, even if I disagree with what they happen to say, provided that they are sincere in their beliefs. Unfortunately, I have to even support your right to freedom of speech, like it or not.  :( Now of course, I believe that the US War of Independence was a war that, in the long run was worth the great sacrifices that were made.  This is because other nations that began as British colonies that gained their independence peacefully, such as Australia and Canada, serve as the greatest warnings of what is to become of the US unless a few of us make an effort to change things. Just consider the draconian Canadian laws, under which one can be fined or imprisoned for non-violently speaking their mind.  Canada also has recently passed a draconian law requiring all privately owned firearms to be registered. Background checks?  In order to even buy a single shot .22 rifle, Canadian "background checks are more like what Americans would call a "rectal exam!" In Australia, which already did require firearms to be registered, citizens were required to turn in all semi-autos, (even .22 rifles) AND pump action shotguns. See what happened in only a year, find out the effect this draconian law had had on crime: http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/aus.html But let the D.A. make one little post that says I had a racist experience and all of a sudden, I "make a good case for seperation."

But you often do make a good case for separatism.  The truth is, that while you can discuss issues, instead of name-calling when you choose, you simply see things from a different perspective.  While the cliche is "liberals feel, conservatives think," it is completely understandable that blacks and whites not only think, but do feel differently, and can’t live together as "family."  It would be better to live in separate places and try to get along on as "just friends." But Luke, err…Murdock, "I can feel the good in you, you can turn away from the darkside, let go of your hate!"

DA…You must learn the power of the Dark Side….use your anger to destroy me. Regards, HM Western Imperative Network http://www.usaor.net/users/ipm Wake Up or Die http://www.wakeupordie.com Politically Incorrect http://www.sound.net/~fenix/PI-index.html Stormfront http://www.stormfront.org Yggdrasil’s Library http://www.ddc.net/ygg Civil War Two http://www.civilwartwo.com/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  But Luke, err…Murdock, Oh, what’s this, more of your infamous detective work? LOL! The only thing worse than a dumb negro, is one who THINKS he’s smart. Actually it was joke you blathering moron, an allusion to Star Wars. I guess you don’t get out too often. I don’t have time to sit around memorizing lines from stupid Hollywood movies like you obviously do.

I thought you were retired??? Lying scab! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — For White Unity, ipm Western Imperative Network http://www.usaor.net/users/ipm/ Racial Statistics http://pw1.netcom.com/~jna/facts/racestat.htm National Alliance http://www.natvan.com Facts On NATO’s Attacks on Serbia http://www.compuserb.com/ Yggdrasil’s Library http://www.ddc.net/ygg/ R. P. Oliver Website http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/america/

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I would suggest that it is foolish to consume an inmoderate amount of adult beverages outside of one’s own home, or that of a trusted friend.

Beer in Mexico is like drinking O’douls, it’s pretty hard to get in trouble off of that. It is certainly even more foolish to do so in Mexico, where many naive young people have no idea what kind of troubles they can get into, as the laws and customs are not the same as they are in the US.

Actually we did get in trouble down there last night. We came back broke after bribing an officer to let us go. Luckily I still had $2.00 to pay for toll. But it was all still fun. Hey, if they can have their fun celebrating Cinco De Mayo in the streets on this side of the border, why not bring the 4th of July down there? Well then you ought to be condeming "Crusader" for saying that he wishes we were still under the Queen. He explicitly said that if he were around 200 years ago, he would have fought for England. Absolutely not.  I don’t condemn anyone for saying what they believe, or informing others about their favorite web-sites, even if I disagree with what they happen to say, provided that they are sincere in their beliefs.

But given that he is a member of your racialist organization and posts using your WIN logo(with no disclaimer saying his views are of his own and not representative of your cyber-activist group), then he relects on all of you. Unfortunately, I have to even support your right to freedom of speech, like it or not.  :(

I don’t say anything too bad I don’t think. Just consider the draconian Canadian laws, under which one can be fined or imprisoned for non-violently speaking their mind.  Canada also has recently passed a draconian law requiring all privately owned firearms to be registered.

Why is having your firearms registered a bad thing? If we have to register our cars, why not register an object that could be used to easily kill people or commit crime? But let the D.A. make one little post that says I had a racist experience and all of a sudden, I "make a good case for seperation." But you often do make a good case for separatism.  The truth is, that while you can discuss issues, instead of name-calling when you choose, you simply see things from a different perspective.  While the cliche is "liberals feel, conservatives think,"

A bit to over-generalized. There are quite a few conservatives that feel. Look at the abortion clinic bombers, they sure are emotional. Or even many of your fellow racialist, such as the skinheads, they aren’t too intellectual. Of course there are some intellectual white nationalist, such as a former president of apartheid S. Africa I was reading about who said a lot of things similiar to you. But the intellectual ones are far and few between. In my estimation, it is moderates who think, extremists who feel. And extremists come as liberals and conservatives. it is completely understandable that blacks and whites not only think, but do feel differently, and can’t live together as "family."  

I think and feel differently than my mother, father and sister, so what does that mean? It would be better to live in separate places and try to get along on as "just friends."

Are you sure that your rationale isn’t simply because you hate the idea of all these "mud people" possibly moving next door to you? Regardless of how similiar you are to them? Examine your feelings, Murdock, do you think you are better than non-whites? Would you ever invite a non-white over for dinner? Or take an invitation for one? Would you make any friends or be seen publically socializing with a non-white? DA…You must learn the power of the Dark Side….use your anger to destroy me.

That shouldn’t be too hard, but first I’d rather duel Emperor Piece, the true face of evil. — regards, The Devil’s Advocate "Your Warrant Is In Question"    http://surf.to/advocate

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Amazing.  The founding father were such assholes as to let their comrades-in-arms live in poverty.  The Mafia is not that cold. M

|Just something to think about while enjoying the BBQ’s, the beer, and the |fireworks! | | |They Price they paid, by Gary Hidreth: | |Have you ever wondered what happended to the 56  men who signed |the Declaration of Indepndence? | |five signers were capture by the British as traitors and tortured before they |died.  Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.   Two lost their sons in the |Revolutionary Army, another had two sons captured.  Nine of the 56 fought and died from |wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. | |What kind of men were they?  Twenty -four were lawyers and jurists. |eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners, |men of means, well educated.   But they signed the Declaration of |Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured. | |Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships |swept from the seas by the British Navy.  He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, |and died in rags. | |Thoomas McKeam was so  hounded by the British that he was forced to move |his family almmost constantly.  He served in the Congress without pay, and his family |was kept in hiding.  His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward. | |Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, |Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton. | |At the Battlle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis |had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters.  He quietly urged General George |Washington to open fire.  The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt. | |Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed.  The enemy jailed his wife, |and she died within a a few months. | |John Hart was driven from his wife’s bedside as she was dying .  Their 13 children |fled for their lives.  His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more |than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and |his children vanished.  A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart. |Norris and  Livngtston suffered similar fates. | | |Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. |These were not wild eyed, rabble rousing ruffians. | |They were soft-spoken men of means and education.l  They had security, but they |valued liverty more.   Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: | |For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection ofthe divine |providence, we mutually pledge to eacy other, our lives, our fortunes, and our |sacred honor. | |They gave you and  me a free and independent America.  The history books never told you |a lot of what happened in the Revolutionary War.  We didn’t just fight the British. |We were British subjects at that tim and we fought our own government! Perhaps you |can now see why our founding fathers had a hatred for standing armies, and allowed |through the Second Amendment for everyone to be armed. | |Frankly, I can’t read this without crying. | |Some of us take these liberties so much for granted…We shouldn’t. | |Happy Independence Day, |HM | |Western Imperative Network |http://www.usaor.net/users/ipm | |Wake Up or Die |http://www.wakeupordie.com | |Politically Incorrect |http://www.sound.net/~fenix/PI-index.html | |Stormfront |http://www.stormfront.org | |Yggdrasil’s Library |http://www.ddc.net/ygg | |Civil War Two |http://www.civilwartwo.com/

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Just what is meant by the saying "Dark Clouds" over San Francisco? While I use this phrase as a symbolism, there is also a literal meaning. The "Dark Clouds" I refer to are not the fog that covers  much of the city withits mists, not the ones one would visit Fort Point, and see part of the Golden Gate Bridge enshrouded. These "Dark Clouds" are also not the ominous storm coulds of Winter, that bring the rain, wind, and also turn Candlestick Park into a swamp that visiting teams, during the NFL playoffs would rather avoid. The real "Dark Cloud" weather phenomenom  occurs when an inversion layer traps the smog in the SF Bay area, instead of dispersing it elswhere, yet the moisture from the nearby bodies of water mix with it. It is really ugly.  It reveals the city as it really is:  a grey place, where decent people live behind bars and locked doors, and the criminals run loose. For movie fans, I would suggest a look at the 80’s remake of the 50’s classic "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" to see a few scenes of how a city with such natural beauty can become so ugly. Instead of being the beautiful park;  a place for all to enjoy the natural beauty of the Golden Gate National Recreational Area, it is being  turned into a private area for those who wish to promote their own ideas of global governance, and do so with funds directly extorted from US citizens, and from funds from tax-exempt foundations. What is particularly reprehensible is that the former head of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union is allowed to use this land as HQ for his "Gorbachev Foundation," instead of being packed off to Afghanistan, where he would be given a fair trial, I am sure, for his war crimes. Now classic liberals, and even honest socialists would agree that "this land was made for you and me." Yet, this land, one of unique natural beauty is being transformed into the HQ of UN (us taxpayer) subsidized agencies, along with FEMA, and George Lucas,  with his promotion of his "New Age" beliefs in what come packaged as fun to watch (I’ll have to admit that) movies. While of course, many who read this might disagree with me on almost everything else, shouldn’t the SF Presidio be an area for all to hike, bicycle, or drive around a bit in, instead of an enclave for the New World Order elite? Oh, I almost forgot, the url for more information is: http://www.crossroad.to/text/articles/starwar6-99.html

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I don’t have time to sit around memorizing lines from stupid Hollywood movies like you obviously do.

Actually, what is funny is that many of the most famous lines from movies were never really spoken.  Now I haven’t seen the new "Star Wars" movie yet.. but…. In "Casablanca" Humphrey Bogart never really did say "Play it again Sam.." He said "Go ahead and play it…if the lady can stand it so can I" And Peter Lorre never did say "Meet me in the casbah."  As I recall, he always was in the casbha.! Clint Eastwood never did , in "Dirty Harrry" say "Feel lucky punk?"  The line was "Gotta ask yourself- Do I feel lucky…well do ya’ punk?" Yet, the "Devils Advocate" does good, in his own way by bringing up the discussion of "Star Wars," and how this links to those that represent the real "Dark Side" that is taking over the beautiful grounds of what was the Presidio in San Francisco, that was, once the Army base closed to have become part of the Golden Gate Recreational Area…. next chapter:  Dark Coulds over San Francisco same newsgroups, same time, Regards, HM

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Question:

I moved to a small village about a month ago. Most people who live here don’t have a clue what’s going on in the world. They go to church 4 times on a sunday. Women wear black stockings, long skirts, black head, etc. They belong to a very religious community and are very strict (kinda like the Amish?). When I went to town a few days ago, I took a walk over the market place…People were staring at me, pointing at me, giggling… Nothing new. But at one point a little girl (about 4 yr old) came up to me and her mother grabbed her and dragged the girl out of my way. That hurts. I know that if I’m out on the streets that I draw attention, since I have three eyebrow piercings, six BIG thick rings in my ear and (new!) a nose-bridge pierce. Usually I don’t mind people looking at me, I even like that (it would be horrible if no one looked). But staring…? Or keeping their kids away from me? It’s not just this village, although people are very narrow minded up here, it also happens in bigger cities. The only city were I can walk on the streets without being stared at is Amsterdam (you can walk naked up there and nobody will notice). Anyway, my question is to you all: how much do you mind drawing (unwanted?) attention? How does it feel? Is it different when you are with somebody else (to me it is)? …any one?   ^   ^   0   ~     ^   __/   |o |    _/   /nne //arie

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When I went to town a few days ago, I took a walk over the market place…People were staring at me, pointing at me, giggling… Nothing new. But at one point a little girl (about 4 yr old) came up to me and her mother grabbed her and dragged the girl out of my way. That hurts.

As your friend, & as someone who lives in a city not the back woods,I have to point out that it’s possible that the mom had just heard about someone’s kid being kidnapped… or there could have been a personalunrelated tragedy.  Unlikely, but I hate that you’re feeling bad ~ Rebekah — "…Now I’ll take life by the balls and squeeze until they …CRUNCH." members.aol.com/ta2intl/tattoo.htm  www.askjeeves.com — search engine FAQs- http://www.eskimo.com/~rab http://www.achilles.net/~dextra/spako

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But at one point a little girl (about 4 yr old) came up to me and her mother grabbed her and dragged the girl out of my way. That hurts.

happens to me more often than i’d like to think about….honestly(and kinda sadly) i got used to it aftera while Anyway, my question is to you all: how much do you mind drawing (unwanted?) attention? How does it feel? Is it different when you are with somebody else (to me it is)?

i personally don’t mind attention….it’s a logical side effect of having 11 facial piercings…what i do mind is when i get turned into a zoo animal…"look ma…he got earrings in his face"(hick accent)…i’m not a big fan of being made to feel like a exhibit there for people to gawk at….and i agree it is much worse when i’m with someone else….it’s quite annoying to be out on a date trying to enjoy dinner when everyone including the waiter is asking if my septum ring goes "all the way through"….sorry if this was a little rambling…but i’ve been needing to vent my feelings on this subject for a while…skott

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But at one point a little girl (about 4 yr old) came up to me and her mother grabbed her and dragged the girl out of my way. That hurts. happens to me more often than i’d like to think about….honestly(and kinda sadly) i got used to it aftera while

I’ve been wondering something.  When I look through the books at my piercer’s they all have traditional bodyart that seems to be mostly African.  I get the impression that traditionally, African cultures have accepted/used bodyart such as piercings and tattoos.  You never see books of "traditional Swedish bodyart".  Do ya suppose bodmods are more acceptable in climates where people wear fewer clothes?  I guess I’m wondering if the fact that people in northern climates tend to wear lots of sweaters and things makes it less likely for them to adorn their skin since noone can see it.And maybe this is why people are so uncomfortable with it, they just haven’t seen it. Just rambling. Gret — OLSEN,GRETA ANN Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp:     …!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1981a

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Hey Annemarie, Used to have the same problem from the other side o the coin. Imagine the looks you got/get, now reverse it. You are the ONLY person at a tattoo convention showing NO INK or metal wearing a suit and TIE.. Pretty Funny PSSSTTT  WHO IS THAT GUY??????  Must be a NARC!!!!! Either that or a dirty old man pervert!!! Ray Tattoo= stained glass on my soul Contact me for your shop insurance needs

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 : Do ya suppose bodmods are more :acceptable in climates where people wear fewer clothes?  I guess I’m :wondering if the fact that people in northern climates tend to wear lots f sweaters and things (tres Snip)

      I live in Canada, and yes we wear ALOT of clothes in the winter.  But in the summer Its very warm and I expose some of the body art.  Anywhere bod mods are looked at as being "Weird" no matter how much clothing the culture wears.     If someone dosent have a 0g bridge pierce and they see someone that does well they are going to stare for a bit.  (0g bridge? COOL)  But  I live in a northern climate and I now of many people that are accepting to my tattoos and pierces.  Then again it can always depend on the person that gets em.  If a business person one day left the office and came back the next day with every facial pierce possible more  than a few are going to stares.     I would have to say that it dosent matter how much clothes the culture wear, but rather how the culture accepts the mods. (is it a fad?)  If its a fad in that culture the people are going to accept it much more readily.  If you live in a place of no acceptance of this and that place dosent wear any clothes the people are not going to accept it just cause they are nekid.     Just a little ramblin’ Ruokall~!

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<snip But at one point a little girl (about 4 yr old) came up to me and her mother grabbed her and dragged the girl out of my way. That hurts.

<snip /nne //arie

Well, when I got to the end of my highschool years, i started to dress "differently."        Basically I wore a lot of black, I often wore knee high black leather boots, and a spiked dog collar.  Other then that, my apperrance was pretty normal.  I have more revealing colthes now then I ever wore then, and at the time, I only had my lobes pierced.  My home town is not the most conservative of places, but I must admit that I was one of the "wilder" looking women since the end of the major punk movement and I was dating and have since married a man who was part of what was then called "the unholy treeo".  Some of the local residents, to this day think that my husband and his two best friends are vampiers.  I was called a whore and a slut by people passing in cars, people would keep their kids away from me, I was stopped by the police more then once simply so they could check my id and hastle me. Even when i dressed to "fit in" this happened…I guess something about me just makes the masses shun me.  So Anne-marie, i really wouldn’t worry about it. From what i have experienced, they do it from fear.  If/when you can educate them about yourself and what kind of person you are they will look beyond it.  If there is some sort of comunity outreach or something, you should give that a try and hopefullly, if it works out and you can get the people from the outreach to like and accept you, word will spread around the comunity and then people won’t shy away Ashen

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I’ve been wondering something.  When I look through the books at my piercer’s they all have traditional bodyart that seems to be mostly African.  I get the impression that traditionally, African cultures have accepted/used bodyart such as piercings and tattoos.  You never see books of "traditional Swedish bodyart".  Do ya suppose bodmods are more acceptable in climates where people wear fewer clothes?  I guess I’m wondering if the fact that people in northern climates tend to wear lots of sweaters and things makes it less likely for them to adorn their skin since noone can see it.And maybe this is why people are so uncomfortable with it, they just haven’t seen it.

I have to agree with you on this idea..but i wonder if maybe the reason that facial type piercings are less common in say sweden is becasue of the cold factor..not that you are wearing some many clothes, but more along the lines of the metal jewlery gets cold and leaches the heat out of your body really fast..i mean i had to get a hat last winter because if i tried to walk anywhere after i got my helix, my ear got so cold around the piercing after about five minutes that i would get a headache.. just my 0.02$ ashen

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I’ve been wondering something.  When I look through the books at my piercer’s they all have traditional bodyart that seems to be mostly African.  I get the impression that traditionally, African cultures have accepted/used bodyart such as piercings and tattoos.  You never see books of "traditional Swedish bodyart".  Do ya suppose bodmods are more acceptable in climates where people wear fewer clothes?  I guess I’m wondering if the fact that people in northern climates tend to wear lots of sweaters and things makes it less likely for them to adorn their skin since noone can see it.And maybe this is why people are so uncomfortable with it, they just haven’t seen it. Just rambling. Gret

Well I have seen a lot of celtic, which I was under the impression is traditional tattoos from the Scotland/Ireland area.  I was under the impression that those areas are not a warmer climate. ——- This is not a signature. So be it.

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I have 22 peircings, 18 of which are from the neck up..  and purple-blue-pink hair..  Anyhow, aside from that I’m really a lot more "normal" than a lot of my "normal" friends.  Back to your question.  I have caused traffic accidents because people on the freeway are intent on staring at me.  A couple times, some car will be driving by like 15 miles more than I’m driving, and slow down in the fast lane just to stare.  Generally I wave and look snide.  Only once has someone guarded something from me, and that was their purse.  Sheesh.  Like I’d try to steal a purse in a crowded arena with like 15,000 people.  (It was at Cirque de Soliel in Chicago)  Anyhoo, I’ve just become used to it, It’s been 6 years since I started what my mom used to refer to as a "phase".   I look at it as, if those people are so offended by what I look< like, I don’t even want to know what they themselves are like.  I guess it’s my 24 hour defense mechanism.  :)  G’luck girl, you’re cooler than them anyhow Anyway, my question is to you all: how much do you mind drawing (unwanted?) attention? How does it feel? Is it different when you are with somebody else (to me it is)?

-becky (click <a href="http://members.aol.com/cuervo9936"here</a for my home.)

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Well I have seen a lot of celtic, which I was under the impression is traditional tattoos from the Scotland/Ireland area.  I was under the impression that those areas are not a warmer climate.

uhh… people (ahem kiley) call me on it if i’m wrong here, but i dont think that celtic art was originally celtic "tattoo" art (ie i dont think the art from the book of kells and others came off of aodhan’s arm down at the local pub).  that seems to be more of a now phenomenon (as opposed to traditional tribal tattooing of africa and others).  as for people in celtic countries with celtic tats, i’m not sure how prevelant it even is.  i do have family in ireland, and my modded cousins are not tattoo’d with ‘celtic’ tats.  like i said, this is simply personal observation, not tattoo history speaking. xoxo mo’ ***** maura k phipps http://members.aol.com/mop418/main.htm

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   I would have to say that it dosent matter how much clothes the culture wear, but rather how the culture accepts the mods. (is it a fad?)  If its a fad in that culture the people are going to accept it much more readily.  If you live in a place of no acceptance of this and that place dosent wear any clothes the people are not going to accept it just cause they are nekid.    Just a little ramblin’ Ruokall~!

I guess I was kinda thinking in a more historical sense.  I can’t personally come up with any examples of traditional bodmods for societies in colder climates.  Which certainly doesn’t mean they don’t exist, I was just wondering if anyone knew of any. Which brings up a question, someone pointed out celtic tatoos.  Does anyone know if celtic designs were historically used as tatoos?  Or are these old patterns that people have only recently begun to tatoo on themselves? Just a little more ramblin’ Gret — OLSEN,GRETA ANN Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp:     …!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1981a

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Hi guys (& girls Thanks 4 your replies. But reading them I think I didn’t make myself clear (enough). This is , obviously I know, not my native language. I don’t mind drawing attention (at all). I’ve got my face full of SS, so of course people look. But when mothers are dragging their children away from me: that hurts. I am not a bad person, I’m *just* a piercing-freak. Staring: OK. Avoiding me: OK. Giggling: OK. But keeping their kids away: NOT OK. What adults do is their business, as long as they let me do what I like. And they do, they just stare at me. But a good parent would give his or her kid the opportunity to decide for themselves what they like and what they don’t like. Ah, well, never mind…I’m having a hard time making myself clear on this one. Thanx 4 listening anyway.   ^   ^   0   ~     ^   __/   |o |    _/   /nne //arie

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I moved to a small village about a month ago. Most people who live here don’t have a clue what’s going on in the world. They go to church 4 times on a sunday. Women wear , etc. They belong to a very religious community and are very strict (kinda like the Amish?). When I went to town a few days ago, I took a walk over the market place…People were staring at me, pointing at me, giggling… Nothing new. But at one point a little girl (about 4 yr old) came up to me and her mother grabbed her and dragged the girl out of my way. That hurts.

Just remember the old saw "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." I’m sorry, Anne Marie, but I can’t be very sympathetic. *You* were the one that moved into this environment; the village folk did not come to you and try to inject their beliefs and practices into your life. Be thankful that there are still small islands of society where people can live such a life; it is not possible to do so if modern technological society intrudes; no mixture of a life of quiet and piety with modern glitz is possible. The denizens may not realize what’s going on in the world, but perhaps that’s because they choose to think of other things than the Spice Girls and media-powered entertainment business. (BTW, don’t make the mistake of thinking that I am unaware of the snake pits such small communities often turn out to be when you get to know who is who and who is doing what to whom.) Question: why did you move to this village? Did you not realize the environment you were entering? Judging from your remark The only city were I can walk on the streets without being stared at is Amsterdam (you can walk naked up there and nobody will notice).

you knew what you were getting into. Why, then, your complaint? My advice is that you take out your jewellery, don black stockings, long skirts, black head [scarves?}, and start going to church like the rest. It won't hurt you and in later life you may find yourself looking back on this period as a pleasant interlude. <sermon This is something that I hope the younger readers of r.a.b. realize: bodyart is not universally viewed with cries of joy and happiness. Many, many communities will offer responses similar to that which Anne Marie has experienced if you turn up in full fig. Even on the west coast of the US, once you get outside the major urban centres (LA, SF, Portland, Seattle) and the university towns, you are dealing with genuine cowtowns and all the attitudes that implies. Think twice about that facial tattoo, IOW. </sermon -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

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Well I have seen a lot of celtic, which I was under the impression is traditional tattoos from the Scotland/Ireland area.  I was under the impression that those areas are not a warmer climate. uhh... people (ahem kiley) call me on it if i'm wrong here, but i dont think that celtic art was originally celtic "tattoo" art (ie i dont think the art from the book of kells and others came off of aodhan's arm down at the local pub).  that seems to be more of a now phenomenon (as opposed to traditional tribal tattooing of africa and others).  as for people in celtic countries with celtic tats, i'm not sure how prevelant it even is.  i do have family in ireland, and my modded cousins are not tattoo'd with 'celtic' tats.  like i said, this is simply personal observation, not tattoo history speaking.

Ok, you got me there, but I think that the kelts did have some tattoos, even if they are not the knotwork seen today.  Maybe I am basing this more on that Mel Gibson movie then actuality.  Anyone know? ------- This is not a signature. So be it.

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Thanks 4 your replies. But reading them I think I didn't make myself clear (enough). This is , obviously I know, not my native language.

Hmmm ... I don't think this is an issue of language.  I understood perfectly what you were saying.  It's not the attention you object to, it's being treated like a leper that is problematic -- it's personal and it can hurt.  Period.  It hurts to be treated like a leper, and it hurts to realize that people are still that narrow minded.  This I totally understand and agree with.  As far as the replies to your post -- It seems like people focused more on the idea of bodyart drawing attention because it's something every one can relate to, and has a story about ... which is how most conversations move.  I don't think the shift in focus had anything to do with your communication skills.  You're quite adept. Becka

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pacific northwest michael mulcahy - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -    I would have to say that it dosent matter how much clothes the culture wear, but rather how the culture accepts the mods. (is it a fad?)  If its a fad in that culture the people are going to accept it much more readily.  If you live in a place of no acceptance of this and that place dosent wear any clothes the people are not going to accept it just cause they are nekid.    Just a little ramblin' Ruokall~! I guess I was kinda thinking in a more historical sense.  I can't personally come up with any examples of traditional bodmods for societies in colder climates.  Which certainly doesn't mean they don't exist, I was just wondering if anyone knew of any. Which brings up a question, someone pointed out celtic tatoos.  Does anyone know if celtic designs were historically used as tatoos?  Or are these old patterns that people have only recently begun to tatoo on themselves? Just a little more ramblin' Gret -- OLSEN,GRETA ANN Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp:   ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1981a

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I moved to a small village about a month ago. Most people who live here don't have a clue what's going on in the world. They go to church 4 times on a sunday. Women wear black stockings, long skirts, black head, etc. They belong to a very religious community and are very strict (kinda like the Amish?).

I just moved to a farm outside a village, population 1800.  ANY new person is turning heads, and thee hubby and I with our shaved heads, tattoos and facial piercngs are certainly no exception.  For thee first few months ov school, I would never be seen by my seven year-old daughters' friends or teachers without my hair down, septum ring flipped up, and wearing long sleeves.  Now I'm involved in thee local Browines troupe, volunteer at thee school library, and am active in thee business community.  I gave people a chance to get to know me first, then let them filter thee bodmods afterwards. Being singled out as a freak can hurt.  Especially when you know darned well that they're perpetuating prejudice against what people look like <sigh.  Best ov luck in your new home, and just give those people a chance, and they might return you thee favour. "I don't care what it would mean to you, I was speaking from my own perspective" ---pasquale    Denise Robinson, CEO Ambient Inc.    www.ambient.on.ca

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[modern celtic styles = traditional celtic ?] uhh… people (ahem kiley) call me on it if i’m wrong here, but i dont think that celtic art was originally celtic "tattoo" art (ie i dont think the art from the book of kells and others came off of aodhan’s arm down at the local pub).  that seems to be more of a now phenomenon (as opposed to traditional tribal tattooing of africa and others).  as for people in celtic countries with celtic tats, i’m not sure how prevelant it even is.  i do have family in ireland, and my modded cousins are not tattoo’d with ‘celtic’ tats.  like i said, this is simply personal observation, not tattoo history speaking. Ok, you got me there, but I think that the kelts did have some tattoos, even if they are not the knotwork seen today.  Maybe I am basing this more on that Mel Gibson movie then actuality.  Anyone know?

I’m not going to pretend to know a hell of a lot about traditional Celtic tattoos, but I do recall seeing an illustration in "The Total Tattoo Book" (Amy Krakow, 1994.  New York: Warner Books) of what was supposedly either a Pict or a Celt.  He was tattooed, primarily with very simple geometric forms.  I seem to recall armbands composed of two simple, thick black lines about 2" apart, with a series of large dots in the gap;  and work on the lower legs composed of a combination of black bands and vertical black stripes.  Very simple, very stark.  One of the main reasons that I remember it is that my tattoos are quite similar (for eg, 3/4" thick black line around my right calf which moves into a koru [spiral] on the outside of my leg).   Krakow’s book is pretty good, if you can find it.  I think Amazon carry it.  Fairly light tone, but mellow and nice with it. — You say Karl and I say Harpo. – Carter USM

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<snip What adults do is their business, as long as they let me do what I like. And they do, they just stare at me. But a good parent would give his or her kid the opportunity to decide for themselves what they like and what they don’t like.

<snip Parents should allow their children to make their own decisions about things, but then don’t. It’s just part of the parenting thing to try to sheild your child from things that are "different" and or "bad," to keep them from liking things that you don’t like and so on. I know this because even though my daugter is only 16 months old, in some cases I find myself doing this with her already.  I also remeber my mother doing it to me…steering me away from two men holding hands in park, or getting angry at me for staring at pictures of women for too long.  She sees being bi/lesbian/gay as something wrong and sinful and thus tried to keep me away from it.  It didn’t work, but it did make me feel terrible when I started to realize that I was bi-sexual. Anyways, like I was saying, I find myself "turing my daughter away" from things I deem not rigth all the time….for example, I can’t stand Barnie..so she doens’t watch that show..she doesn’t even know who Barnie is…  I’ts part of the parenting instinct…I’m not saying it’s good, or right, but more that it can’t be helped. Ashen

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I guess I was kinda thinking in a more historical sense.  I can’t personally come up with any examples of traditional bodmods for societies in colder climates.  Which certainly doesn’t mean they don’t exist, I was just wondering if anyone knew of any. Which brings up a question, someone pointed out celtic tatoos.  Does anyone know if celtic designs were historically used as tatoos?  Or are these old patterns that people have only recently begun to tatoo on themselves?

Actually i think the celtic tattoos are inspired by the illuminations (drawings) in the book of kells.I personally have never heard of them being used traditionally as designs for tattoos. Also all the cheltic knot designs ive seen were either in leather work, wood carvings, or in books. I think that the knot work has only really been used recently for tattoos.

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you and try to inject their beliefs and practices into your life. Be

Not in a million years! Those are the people who refuse to vacinate their children and belief that a television is the eye of the devil. They should ‘act like the Romans do’ and adjust to the rest of the country. thankful that there are still small islands of society where people

Thankful? For what? That their community has teenage mothers because they’re refusing to do something about birthcontrol? The fact that they are happy that *their* God invented AIDS for gay people? Question: why did you move to this village? Did you not realize the environment you were entering? Judging from your remark

I did realize, I just didn’t had a clue how it would feel. The reason why I moved up there is that my husband has a huge house in a newer area of the village. you knew what you were getting into. Why, then, your complaint?

AGAIN: I do NOT complain!!! I just made an observasion, please read all my posts! As I said before: I DON"T mind people looking, staring, whatever…I even understand they do so. I was curious how the other RABbits would feel about that…do they mind, do they like it? Etc. My advice is that you take out your jewellery, don black stockings, long skirts, black head [scarves?}, and start going to church like the rest.

I would never ever take out my jewelry for nobody what so ever. Nothing in this world can make me go to church. And for another thing: they hate people like me just because of my race. looking back on this period as a pleasant interlude.

I will probably smile if I ever read this message again. (I can’t actually belief you’re serious) This is something that I hope the younger readers of r.a.b. realize:

What makes you think I’m (very) young? Think twice about that facial tattoo, IOW.

Tattoo? Excuse me sir, but we’re discussing facial PIERCINGs. And if you meant that: I did think twice , that’s why I have them. I love my facials piercings deeply, because they are a part of *me*. …   ^   ^   0   ~     ^   __/   |o |    _/   /nne //arie

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My advice is that you take out your jewellery, don black stockings, long skirts, black head [scarves?}, and start going to church like the

Sorry, I made a type mismatch: it should be: they are wearing black haTs when they go to their church. …   ^   ^   0   ~     ^   __/   |o |    _/   /nne //arie

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He there, I think that you must not feel bad when narrowminded "people" think your an outcast. THE DONT KNOW BETTER. Your questions; I don’t mind drawing yes or no attention. I don’t gif shit for wat other people think. I have my piercing for me and myself. NO, its not differend. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I moved to a small village about a month ago. Most people who live here don’t have a clue what’s going on in the world. They go to church 4 times on a sunday. Women wear black stockings, long skirts, black head, etc. They belong to a very religious community and are very strict (kinda like the Amish?). When I went to town a few days ago, I took a walk over the market place…People were staring at me, pointing at me, giggling… Nothing new. But at one point a little girl (about 4 yr old) came up to me and her mother grabbed her and dragged the girl out of my way. That hurts. I know that if I’m out on the streets that I draw attention, since I have three eyebrow piercings, six BIG thick rings in my ear and (new!) a nose-bridge pierce. Usually I don’t mind people looking at me, I even like that (it would be horrible if no one looked). But staring…? Or keeping their kids away from me? It’s not just this village, although people are very narrow minded up here, it also happens in bigger cities. The only city were I can walk on the streets without being stared at is Amsterdam (you can walk naked up there and nobody will notice). Anyway, my question is to you all: how much do you mind drawing (unwanted?) attention? How does it feel? Is it different when you are with somebody else (to me it is)? …any one?   ^   ^   0   ~     ^   __/   |o |    _/   /nne //arie

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Greta Ann Olsen wrote I guess I was kinda thinking in a more historical sense.  I can’t personally come up with any examples of traditional bodmods for societies in colder climates. pacific northwest michael mulcahy

Yeah, and heading on north from there, Aleuts and Eskimos (both Yupik and Inuit), right across to Greenland — both labrets and tattos for all these up till the end of the last century. Going back in time a bit, tattooing was common all across northern Eurasia, from the Ainu N of Japan across to the pre-Christian Scythians and the Celts in Europe.  The oldest known tattoos (5-6000 years) come from this general area, I believe.  Only the Ainu (women’s facial tattoos) were still doing it up till the last century or so, I think. Skull moulding of infants was done not only in the Pacific NW, but also in Northern Asia and Europe, for example by the Huns in the dark ages and in France until quite recently (though France is perhaps not quite such a "northern climate", I guess). There was a fair bit of it around … John.

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Question:

I am planning on getting an ankle band as my first and likely only tattoo. I would like a celtic style band, with two pictures breaking the band…one on the inside and one on the outside of the ankle.  I’ve been thinking of getting it about 3/4" above the ankle itself.  I have been searching the web for ideas and have, to my surprise, found only about a half-dozen examples, none of which I really liked alot, not that I totally want to copy anyway. So, if anyone knows of web sites with some examples and info on ankle bracelet tattoos, I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks much! Jon

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I am planning on getting an ankle band as my first and likely only tattoo. I would like a celtic style band, with two pictures breaking the band…one on the inside and one on the outside of the ankle.  I’ve been thinking of getting it about 3/4" above the ankle itself.  I have been searching the web for ideas and have, to my surprise, found only about a half-dozen examples, none of which I really liked alot, not that I totally want to copy anyway. So, if anyone knows of web sites with some examples and info on ankle bracelet tattoos, I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks much!

For celtic art check out the Dover Press books. You can find them in the Art/ Clip Art section of your local Barnes and Noble or Borders. They have numerous books with examples of celtic bands. I use these all the time when designing celtic tattoos.                         Misha                 http://www.bodybasics.com/misha/misha.html

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thanks, good stuff! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am planning on getting an ankle band as my first and likely only tattoo. I would like a celtic style band, with two pictures breaking the band…one on the inside and one on the outside of the ankle.  I’ve been thinking of getting it about 3/4" above the ankle itself.  I have been searching the web for ideas and have, to my surprise, found only about a half-dozen examples, none of which I really liked alot, not that I totally want to copy anyway. So, if anyone knows of web sites with some examples and info on ankle bracelet tattoos, I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks much! For celtic art check out the Dover Press books. You can find them in the Art/ Clip Art section of your local Barnes and Noble or Borders. They have numerous books with examples of celtic bands. I use these all the time when designing celtic tattoos. Misha http://www.bodybasics.com/misha/misha.html

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I am planning on getting an ankle band as my first and likely only tattoo. I would like a celtic style band, with two pictures breaking the band…one on the inside and one on the outside of the ankle.  I’ve been thinking of getting it about 3/4" above the ankle itself.  I have been searching the web for ideas and have, to my surprise, found only about a half-dozen examples, none of which I really liked alot, not that I totally want to copy anyway. So, if anyone knows of web sites with some examples and info on ankle bracelet tattoos, I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks much! Jon

Hey Jon, I can’t give you any suggestions for on the web, but when I went to get my tatt (I have a Celtic Tree of Life on my inner right ankle) the place I went to had TONS of books with Celtic designs!  More than I could have ever imagined in one place.  So you might want to go to the place you want to have this done.  They should welcome anyone looking for the right design, esp if you tell them your coming to them to do it…after all, it is a permanent production. Blessed Be, and Good Luck, Pixi

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I am planning on getting an ankle band as my first and likely only tattoo.

Uh huh. You say that *now* Jon, but just wait until *after* you get it. ;-D I would like a celtic style band, with two pictures breaking the band…one on the inside and one on the outside of the ankle.  I’ve been thinking of getting it about 3/4" above the ankle itself.  I have been searching the web for ideas and have, to my surprise, found only about a half-dozen examples, none of which I really liked alot, not that I totally want to copy anyway.

May I humbly suggest that no matter what you find and decide to get that you change the design somehow. I don’t know if the person from whom you totally copy the design would really like your copying his or her very personal design. Even though I’ve posted my designs on the web, I ask surfers *not* to copy them, since they are very personal to me (though based on original Celtic manuscripts, I’ve modified them to my own liking). I’ve also asked my tattoo artist to change them somehow should anyone come into her shop and ask her to copy one of *my* tattoos onto *their* body. So, if anyone knows of web sites with some examples and info on ankle bracelet tattoos, I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks much!

http://www.art-tattoo.com/ "I was thinking of love," I replied in a tone of reproach, "and here you are talking to me again–forever–about torture!" "Doubtless! since it’s the same thing–" The Torture Garden by Mirbeau Brian C. Keith at http://www.badland.com/minion

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Question:

i think i saw a post regarding celtic tattoos. somehow i lost the message or deleted it. i don’t know. anyway. whoever posted that please contact me. i’ve got two celtic tattoos that i had done in state college, pa as well as plenty of books to recommend for designs. contact me via e-mail thanks —

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Leahh,    I can’t remember the specific post either, however, I can pretty much guess the Celtic design books you’re referring to…    i.e.  Courtney Davis’ books and the "Book of Kells".    I’m working on a design.. ‘in process’ to fit under a knotwork arch, and to include "Celtic" versions of the four ancient Sumerian sacred animals.  As in: man/man, elk or deer vs. bull, cat vs. lion, and hawk or owl vs. eagle.    Hope to get some work done on this over the Richmond Tattoo Arts Festival in November.                                                                 Spenser

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i think i saw a post regarding celtic tattoos. somehow i lost the message or deleted it. i don’t know. anyway. whoever posted that please contact me. i’ve got two celtic tattoos that i had done in state college, pa as well as plenty of books to recommend for designs. contact me via e-mail thanks —

Leah, I’m not the person who posted that message, but I am thinking of getting a celtic tattoo soon and would appreciate any info you may have. Thanx, — E. Woodley Bass, Jr.

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Question:

Hey all!!  I’m interested in getting a celtic tatto within the next few weeks.  I have a good idea of what I want but I haven’t seen anything that really comes that close to it.  Does anyone know where I might be able to find a sampling of some cool <celtic tattos, whether it is on the net or some other source.  I would greatly apreciate any help with this because I really am itching to get it soon.  thanks a lot!! Pat

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: Hey all!!  I’m interested in getting a celtic tatto within the next few : weeks.  I have a good idea of what I want but I haven’t seen anything that : really comes that close to it.  Does anyone know where I might be able to find : a sampling of some cool <celtic tattos, whether it is on the net or some other : source.  I would greatly apreciate any help with this because I really am : itching to get it soon.  thanks a lot!! There’s a bibliography of Celtic design sources in the FAQ. Visit         http://www.eskimo.com/~rab and check out the Tattoo FAQ. Otherwise, have you tried your local library? And, try an altavista search (http://www.altavista.digital.com/) for ‘celtic tattoo’ as another possibility. –gary           rec.arts.bodyart FAQs: http://www.eskimo.com/~rab           I participate in and support efforts towards keeping r.a.b.            a friendly, useful, interesting, ad-/spam-free newsgroup.

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Question:

I’ve got a question for all you heavily tattooed folks…Do you/have you consider the overall "look" of all you tattoos. I’m not talking about large pieces but more about multiple tattoos in the same region.  The reason I ask is that I find the "patchwork quilt" look rather ugly and obviously I have no desire to display it. So here goes: Did you start out with an overall theme?  If not have you got one now?  What did you do about the gaps? I’ve only had about 5 hours under the needles but I want to come up with an overall "feel" before I go under again Thanks heaps, Paul

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I’ve got a question for all you heavily tattooed folks…Do you/have you consider the overall "look" of all you tattoos. I’m not talking about large pieces but more about multiple tattoos in the same region.  The reason I ask is that I find the "patchwork quilt" look rather ugly and obviously I have no desire to display it.

Well, I don’t really come anywhere near the category of ‘Heavily Tattooed’ (yet), but I agree that the patchwork quilt IMHO _often_ looks messy. However I have seen a few dudes with lots of smallish tats that do seem to work OK together. So here goes: Did you start out with an overall theme?  If not have you got one now?  What did you do about the gaps?

 At present I have only two middling size celtic tattoos but I have decided that all my future work will be big (and celtic). Obviously only you can decide what you think will look good. For myself, I have decided that large designs work best, admittedly this has led to financial constraints, but the planned work for my upper-left sleeve will be done in two sections (probably many months apart) and my back design (still in my head) will probably have to be done in three sections. If you are going to go for small designs, then plan them well, so that they will work together, I don’t know that a _theme_ is really necessary, but consistency of work and colour combinations are, IMO, important. As to filling the gaps, you could always go for the clouds, smoke or sunray style fillers, but unless these are integral or really complementary to the tattoos as a group, I’d avoid it. If you’ve got the blank skin, then go big from the start! I’ve only had about 5 hours under the needles but I want to come up with an overall "feel" before I go under again

draw heaps and heaps and heaps, until you’re happy with it. Thanks heaps, Paul

Glenn Glenn Alldis Facsimile: Australia (002) 31 2323 Facsimile: International [IDD CODE] 61 02 31 2323 Telephone: Australia (002) 31 3788 (Archetype Publishing & Garamond