Question:

Here’s more: http://www.byzant.com/ I just told Google "earth air fire water symbols" and hit Search, and wow! did it find me a pile… you try too… Not all of it, not even most of it, is usable of course, but it might give you ideas anyway. Christine in Vantaa, Finland

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thought someone here might know…. Joel has a very large Celtic Cross tattoo on his left arm. You can see it here (warning, its about a meg, so it might be slow to download): <http://members.optusnet.com.au/~drwatson/images/tattoo/Cnxt6013.jpg Even though its a bit fuzzy, you can still get the idea of it. Now, in the blank ring in the middle he wants symbols of the 4 elements, Earth, Air, Fire & Water (Spirit is already in the middle) We started off with the idea of Runes, but Futhark and Ogham runes don’t have said symbols in them. I can get the alchemy symbols, but the very plain triangles that are traditional for Earth Air Fire & Water are not to his tastes either. Does anyone know of any other symbol systems (aka Qabbalah or other Celtic forms etc etc) that are out there that might fit into the tattoo? Thanks, Yowie

Yowie, I can’t recall where these symbols originated, but there is a very simple symbolic system for the elements composed of triangles. Fire is a right-side up triangle, and water is a upside-down triangle; air is a right-side up triangle with a line going horizontally near the top inside the triangle, and earth is an upside-down triangle with a horizontol line inside near the bottom.  Can’t recall the origin, but I know Crowley used these — maybe Quaballistic, but I’m not at all up on the Quaballah, so I am not sure about that. HTH a little. Ginger-lyn still waking up

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Does anyone know of any other symbol systems (aka Qabbalah or other Celtic forms etc etc) that are out there that might fit into the tattoo?

I don’t know if they’re real symbols, but the movie The Fifth Element had some very cool ones. This page shows a stylized version: http://www.dfemp.com/ I think they’re cool. — Victor M. Martinez                 |   The University of Texas at Austin http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv  |                    Austin, TX 78712 If we knew what we were doing it would not be called research, would it?  

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Yowie, I can’t recall where these symbols originated, but there is a very simple symbolic system for the elements composed of triangles. Fire is a right-side up triangle, and water is a upside-down triangle; air is a right-side up triangle with a line going horizontally near the top inside the triangle, and earth is an upside-down triangle with a horizontol line inside near the bottom.  Can’t recall the origin, but I know Crowley used these — maybe Quaballistic, but I’m not at all up on the Quaballah, so I am not sure about that.

Alchemy for the triangle thingies. Got into general use in modern occultism via the Golden Dawn (like a lot of other material). Paul

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Here’s more: http://www.byzant.com/ I just told Google "earth air fire water symbols" and hit Search, and wow! did it find me a pile… you try too… Not all of it, not even most of it, is usable of course, but it might give you ideas anyway.

Thanks! I had been plugging away at Google for two solid days and while I was bringing up the weirdest and most facinating sites with at least some info in them, they were not quite what I was looking for. It would have never occured to me to put such a simple "earth air fire water symbols" search into Google. And guess what? It worked. Thankyou! FOr anyone who is remotely interested, the best table I"ve come across is: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2763/witchy/c4.html And I’ve alos concluded I could spend the rest of my life studying this Qabbalah stuff and still be none the wiser as to what its about. It certainly doesn’t keep tot he KISS principle. Yowie

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Don’t feel inadequate. The sages suggest no one should study Qabbalah until forty years of age, minimum, with a solid grounding in Talmud. Even then one should have a reliable teacher. It is not recommended at any age for anyone who is mentally unstable or given to fanaticism. It has been known to drive people insane, although they were probably headed that way before and all they needed was something to trigger their insanity.. There are several websites that give instruction at all levels. The usual spelling here is Kabbalah, although I sometimes run into it spelled with the Q, also. And I’ve alos concluded I could spend the rest of my life studying this Qabbalah stuff and still be none the wiser as to what its about. It certainly doesn’t keep tot he KISS principle. Yowie

– I was married by a judge. I should have asked for a jury.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks! I had been plugging away at Google for two solid days and while I was bringing up the weirdest and most facinating sites with at least some info in them, they were not quite what I was looking for. It would have never occured to me to put such a simple "earth air fire water symbols" search into Google. And guess what? It worked. Thankyou! FOr anyone who is remotely interested, the best table I"ve come across is: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2763/witchy/c4.html And I’ve alos concluded I could spend the rest of my life studying this Qabbalah stuff and still be none the wiser as to what its about. It certainly doesn’t keep tot he KISS principle. Yowie

I’m glad I could help. The site you found looks interesting at first glance, I’d better look into it a bit more… Christine in Vantaa, Finland

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Thought someone here might know…. Joel has a very large Celtic Cross tattoo on his left arm. You can see it here (warning, its about a meg, so it might be slow to download): <http://members.optusnet.com.au/~drwatson/images/tattoo/Cnxt6013.jpg Even though its a bit fuzzy, you can still get the idea of it. Now, in the blank ring in the middle he wants symbols of the 4 elements, Earth, Air, Fire & Water (Spirit is already in the middle) We started off with the idea of Runes, but Futhark and Ogham runes don’t have said symbols in them. I can get the alchemy symbols, but the very plain triangles that are traditional for Earth Air Fire & Water are not to his tastes either. Does anyone know of any other symbol systems (aka Qabbalah or other Celtic forms etc etc) that are out there that might fit into the tattoo? Thanks, Yowie

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Hi Yowie, Here is a page with Scandinavian ("Viking") runes: http://www.multiart.nu/grimner/english/index.html I don’t know if it has what you are looking for. The Scandinavian runes were, of course, pretty simple in their form. Not ornamental like some Celtic patterns (though not Ogham – that’s just straight lines of different length going out from a vertical line, isn’t it?) — Marina – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thought someone here might know…. Joel has a very large Celtic Cross tattoo on his left arm. You can see it here (warning, its about a meg, so it might be slow to download): <http://members.optusnet.com.au/~drwatson/images/tattoo/Cnxt6013.jpg Even though its a bit fuzzy, you can still get the idea of it. Now, in the blank ring in the middle he wants symbols of the 4 elements, Earth, Air, Fire & Water (Spirit is already in the middle) We started off with the idea of Runes, but Futhark and Ogham runes don’t have said symbols in them. I can get the alchemy symbols, but the very plain triangles that are traditional for Earth Air Fire & Water are not to his tastes either. Does anyone know of any other symbol systems (aka Qabbalah or other Celtic forms etc etc) that are out there that might fit into the tattoo? Thanks, Yowie

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Hi Yowie, Dunno how you feel about horoscopes, but they too are divided in threes under the elements. Not sure if the three signs for each element would fit into the space provided tho… but here’s a link I found to what the signs look like and which belongs to which element: http://www.djay.com/astrol/ztable2.html I’m sure there are more detailled pics of the symbols, but this is just a suggestion… Christine in Vantaa, Finland – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now, in the blank ring in the middle he wants symbols of the 4 elements, Earth, Air, Fire & Water (Spirit is already in the middle)

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Question:

My wife and I got tattoos at a shop in PB 4 years ago.  We’re going back to San Diego for the holidays this year, and would like to go back to the same artist.  I was hoping I could find a website or at least an email address, but the problem is, my dumb ass can’t remember the name of the shop, nor where exactly it was…    I do remember that the artist that did our tattoos had just finished some work on an old man that was covered in cats. Black and white, highly detailed cats….   Really good… Anyway, I thought Avalon sounded familiar(found their website), but the storefronts for their two shops don’t look anything like the place I went to. I do remember that it was on the second floor of a building, above a small Mexican restaurant, and there was a dog laying out on the front patio of the tattoo shop…   I wish I could remember more about the place, but I suffer from a debilitating disease, CRS…. I just found a yellow pages listing for Ace Tattoo.  This also sounds familiar, but then again, so did Avalon.  Can anyone confirm my suspicions? And does anyone have an email address or web address for them? TIA, — Dave Engle Jacksonville, NC

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, my dumb ass can’t remember the name of the shop, nor where exactly it was…    I do remember that the artist that did our tattoos had just finished some work on an old man that was covered in cats. Black and white, highly detailed cats

Little tough to come up with one www.bigyellow.com show up 42 listings patty Kelley at avalon is excellent as are a handful of others/ Ray

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife and I got tattoos at a shop in PB 4 years ago.  We’re going back to San Diego for the holidays this year, and would like to go back to the same artist.  I was hoping I could find a website or at least an email address, but the problem is, my dumb ass can’t remember the name of the shop, nor where exactly it was…    I do remember that the artist that did our tattoos had just finished some work on an old man that was covered in cats. Black and white, highly detailed cats….   Really good… Anyway, I thought Avalon sounded familiar(found their website), but the storefronts for their two shops don’t look anything like the place I went to. I do remember that it was on the second floor of a building, above a small Mexican restaurant, and there was a dog laying out on the front patio of the tattoo shop…   I wish I could remember more about the place, but I suffer from a debilitating disease, CRS…. I just found a yellow pages listing for Ace Tattoo.  This also sounds familiar, but then again, so did Avalon.  Can anyone confirm my suspicions? And does anyone have an email address or web address for them? TIA, — Dave Engle Jacksonville, NC

So let me get this correct . . . You were impressed enough with the artist’s work that you want more, but what sticks in your mind is a dog in front of the shop and the Mexican restaurant? Kavin

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So let me get this correct . . . You were impressed enough with the artist’s work that you want more, but what sticks in your mind is a dog in front of the shop and the Mexican restaurant?

So, you think if I tell you how much I like my tattoo, it’ll help people to help me identify a particular tattoo parlor?  I said that he did fantastic cats on an old man, other than that, I haven’t exactly studied his career… I’m afraid I can’t tell you about any of his other work… — Dave Engle Jacksonville, NC

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So let me get this correct . . . You were impressed enough with the artist’s work that you want more, but what sticks in your mind is a dog in front of the shop and the Mexican restaurant?

ummmmmmm chalk me up as another idiot then. Four years ago would be my original version of my cross tattoo. I don’t know the artist’s name, but he had fresh tattoos of chrome harley exhaust systems on the side of his head from the weekend before in Sturgis. I have no idea where the shop was either, other than somewhere in kansas city. The only reason I know the name of the shop :/ hell, it took me 3 visits to remember that my current favorite artist in Omaha is Devin and not Kevin. And don’t ask me his last name cuz I dunno. *sigh* I must be getting old… Sadly I cannot help the original poster, as I have never been to Pacific Beach. Odds are that even if I had and visited the shop they are seeking, I wouldn’t remember it either. OBseti : processed my 100 unit under DSTRSS today whooo hooo. —Angie a.k.a. D-Strss "No amount of money compensates for the horror of working at a job where the blood flows backward in your veins as you do your daily tasks." -Ben Stein

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tattoos had just finished some work on an old man that was covered in cats. Black and white, highly detailed cats….   Really good…

I’m pretty sure i know who your are talking about in reference to the guy covered in cats – he’s called the ‘Cat Man’ or something and there was a book published about him…  we have it at the shop…  I’ll have to get back to you in a day or so with the info, and then you can probably find him online and see if it’s the same guy you are thinking about. Sound good? Ok. Good luck, otherwise… TQ

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I’m pretty sure i know who your are talking about in reference to the guy covered in cats – he’s called the ‘Cat Man’ or something and there was a book published about him…  we have it at the shop…  I’ll have to get back to you in a day or so with the info, and then you can probably find him online and see if it’s the same guy you are thinking about. Sound good?

That’s the guy!  He showed me the book that had pictures of him working on the "Cat man". Unfortunately, I’m going to be leaving for California early Saturday morning, so I’m not sure if I’ll get your info in time…  But thanks for looking!  I’ll try to access this group using Dejanews from my parents house, though…  I’m pretty sure that Ace is the place, and I just found www.acetattoo.com (y’know, cause it’s such an obscure reference to the name of their business…).  But I figured that the cat tattoo’s would be featured somewhere on the page…  I can’t get their email function on their website to work, either… — Dave Engle Jacksonville, NC

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So let me get this correct . . . You were impressed enough with the artist’s work that you want more, but what sticks in your mind is a dog in front of the shop and the Mexican restaurant? So, you think if I tell you how much I like my tattoo, it’ll help people to help me identify a particular tattoo parlor?  I said that he did fantastic cats on an old man, other than that, I haven’t exactly studied his career… I’m afraid I can’t tell you about any of his other work… — Dave Engle Jacksonville, NC

NO.  Dipshit. Let me put in in plain English: I remember people I like. I thought other people would, too. Evidently, I am wrong. Kavin

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I remember people I like. I thought other people would, too.

That’s just it.  I don’t know this guy…  I met him and he put some ink on me for about a half an hour…  We never went out and drank a brew together… I do like his work, and I remember it (it helps to be able to see it everyday, too…)!  I just wish that I could remember his name… — Dave Engle Jacksonville, NC

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That’s the guy!  He showed me the book that had pictures of him working on the "Cat man". Unfortunately, I’m going to be leaving for California early Saturday morning, so I’m not sure if I’ll get your info in time…  But thanks for

Tell you what – tomorrow, Friday, Cat’s gonna look at the book that’s at the shop, and i’ll post the artists’ name and etc. before, oh, say  6 o’clock central time. You should still be up, eh?   I’m glad i could get you the info, it’s irritating to not have info you really want… TQ

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I do remember that it was on the second floor of a building, above a small Mexican restaurant, and there was a dog laying out on the front patio of the tattoo shop…  

ace tattoo is probaly what your are thinking of, its in ob (ocean beach), at the end of newport above ‘el rodeo’. the artist may be steve, he does alot of animal tattoos.   avalon tattoo is in pb (pacific beach) and is on the first floor. fip opened avalon 2, on adams ave and thats on the second floor but there is a guitar tech shop below it, (side note: eric is a guitar god, he played on stp’s core album and was their road tech for a couple tours. the man can fix anything thats even sitting next to a guitar) and it wasn’t opened 4yrs ago. hope that helps, -pH

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ace tattoo is probaly what your are thinking of, its in ob (ocean beach), at the end of newport above ‘el rodeo’. the artist may be steve, he does alot of animal tattoos. avalon tattoo is in pb (pacific beach) and is on the first floor.

Yeah, I think Ace Tattoo is the place…  Thanks for reinforcing my suspicions… BTW, I never could figure out exactly where OB ends and PB begins…. — Dave Engle Jacksonville, NC

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BTW, I never could figure out exactly where OB ends and PB begins….

stand on the beach across the street from ace and start walking north, when you reach a large mass of water and see no more beach under your feet, thats the end of ob, 5 or 10 miles north of that is pb, 42 frat houses, 7000 idiot marines, and 400 dizzie blonde girls we have all had sex with. -pH

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beach), at the end of newport above ‘el rodeo’. the artist may be steve, he does alot of animal tattoos. avalon tattoo is in pb (pacific beach) and is on the first floor.

Yup, yup, yup, Cat just confirmed it for me out of the Cat Man book, Steve at Ace.  There you go. TQ

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Yup, yup, yup, Cat just confirmed it for me out of the Cat Man book, Steve at Ace.  There you go.

Thanks, everyone! — Dave Engle Jacksonville, NC

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Yup, yup, yup, Cat just confirmed it for me out of the Cat Man book, Steve at Ace.  There you go. Thanks, everyone!

and people claim that RAB is mean and unhelpful… somebody log this thread! heheh —Angie a.k.a. D-Strss "No amount of money compensates for the horror of working at a job where the blood flows backward in your veins as you do your daily tasks." -Ben Stein

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that was touching, all of it. even the mean and unhelpful part <g — Peace…please! Me…Brendon ‘93 Del Sol S, Frost White What I’m listening to right now: Phish 12/29/98 http://www.geocities.com/brendotroy/ my webpage, which includes a tapelist

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yup, yup, yup, Cat just confirmed it for me out of the Cat Man book, Steve at Ace.  There you go. Thanks, everyone! and people claim that RAB is mean and unhelpful… somebody log this thread! heheh —Angie a.k.a. D-Strss "No amount of money compensates for the horror of working at a job where the blood flows backward in your veins as you do your daily tasks." -Ben Stein

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ace tattoo steve smith

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Question:

Any reason that when I asked a question, all I got was bullshit answers??

you asked a really stupid question. No one serious around here or what?

or what. j

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Any reason that when I asked a question, all I got was bullshit answers?? No one serious around here or what?

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Any reason that when I asked a question, all I got was bullshit answers??

Fuck off and die. No one serious around here or what?

Fuck off and die. —–yttrx

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Any reason that when I asked a question, all I got was bullshit answers??

Oh, also because cross tattoos are stupid and you’re an idiot. —–yttrx

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No one serious around here or what? Fuck off and die. —–yttrx

did I mention I want to have your children? -DinGo — "They call me on the phone when I’m home all alone! They ask for marines but they’re just a bunch of whores They spend their money on Hotels just so they can tell, tell Mr President that I’m jerking off!": Anti-Flag http://www.geocities.com/dingo_lad Before you buy.

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I got the same run around answers when I asked …. I Think people here are to angry… sad really… sorry i cant help with the tat question….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any reason that when I asked a question, all I got was bullshit answers?? Oh, also because cross tattoos are stupid and you’re an idiot. —–yttrx

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I Think people here are to angry…

you cannot even begin to plumb it’s depths. it reaches on past infinity to where the elder gods slumber. it is ancient and terrifying in it’s enourmity. except for amy. she’s really happy. -DinGo — "They call me on the phone when I’m home all alone! They ask for marines but they’re just a bunch of whores They spend their money on Hotels just so they can tell, tell Mr President that I’m jerking off!": Anti-Flag http://www.geocities.com/dingo_lad Before you buy.

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you probably got the same kind of answer becos you came in here and asked someone to design something for you, never assuming that someone would like to be paid for their work.  either that, or this was your first stop and you didn’t look for any designs yourself. instead of posting things like, "hi, design my tattoo (or, "help me look for a design")," perhaps you should try something like, "hi, i’ve tried 40 different search engines, i’ve looked at 863 books at the library, and i’ve visited 37 churches and none of them have the type of cross i’m for which i am looking."  *then* if you’d said something like, "oh, and btw, i’ll pay anyone who will help me design it," then perhaps you would’ve gotten more serious responses. but you didn’t. david — "mom is every gay man’s culprit" –p0okala, #bodyart 20/05/00 http://www.bmeworld.com/myneedle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got the same run around answers when I asked …. I Think people here are to angry… sad really… sorry i cant help with the tat question…. Any reason that when I asked a question, all I got was bullshit answers?? Oh, also because cross tattoos are stupid and you’re an idiot. —–yttrx

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For someone coming "hat in hand", you sure are snotty. And I’m being very serious.  No bullshit in this answer. Kavin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any reason that when I asked a question, all I got was bullshit answers?? No one serious around here or what?

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I got the same run around answers when I asked …. I Think people here are to angry… sad really…

Then why are you here?   sorry i cant help with the tat question….

Then why did you post? —–yttrx

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Any reason that when I asked a question, all I got was bullshit answers??

Because it was a bullshit question. If having a tribal cross tattoo, or any tattoo at all is so hellfire important to you, then perhaps you should put some personal thought into what you want it to look like and not ask other people to do your research for you. No one serious around here or what?

Everyone here is VERY serious, especially about tattoos … and flaming people who don’t have a clue (not saying I always do, but they’ve been nice to me – so far). I was downtown today and went into three tattoo shops … each had a wide variety of tribal type cross designs (and artists who might be willing to design one just for you). I’m sure the selection is just as good anywhere. You might want to try walking INTO a tattoo shop … as a first step towards getting one. Just an idea … Orb http://orbizart.tripod.com

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Any reason that when I asked a question, all I got was bullshit answers??

um, perhaps you asked a bullshit question?  just a thought… No one serious around here or what?

never.   heidi — RAB FAQS: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bodyart RAB Welcome FAQ: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bodyart/netiquette            or: http://www.bmeworld.com/heidi/welcomefaq.html

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Any reason that when I asked a question, all I got was bullshit answers?? No one serious around here or what?

Oh, and what I really meant to say is from the Welcome FAQ:      3c. Why are you so mean to me?  I only asked a question!             or, Why are you all a bunch of assholes? This gets asked quite often.  RAB has developed a culture that has a low tolerance for twits.  If you find yourself asking this question, instead ask yourself "have I been a twit lately?  did I just ask a group of strangers to do my research for me?  did I ask for info to be emailed to me since I can’t be bothered to look back at the group for the answer to my question?  did I just ask a question that gets asked on a weekly, or even daily basis and is answered in the FAQ? did I post a binary when this is clearly a non-binary group?"  etc, etc, etc.  People who immediately go on the defensive and start lashing out at the regulars are the most likely to ask this question. So, don’t be a twit, and read the FAQ, and you’ll surely find that RABbits are not, in fact, all assholes. heidi — RAB FAQS: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bodyart RAB Welcome FAQ: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bodyart/netiquette            or: http://www.bmeworld.com/heidi/welcomefaq.html

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Any reason that when I asked a question, all I got was bullshit answers??

Yeah. No one serious around here or what?

Yeah. good luck. read the survival guide. now. —Angie a.k.a. D-Strss

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Any reason that when I asked a question, all I got was bullshit answers?? Oh, also because cross tattoos are stupid

HEY!   dammit and you’re an idiot.

oh, well… that part I agree with. —Angie a.k.a. D-Strss

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I got the same run around answers when I asked …. I Think people here are to angry… sad really…

yes thats it and you know why????? Cause i spent all day answering stupid fucking questions about cross sorry i cant help with the tat question….

"rec.dont.have.an.answer.but.I.really.want.one Thanks for playing, lovely parting gift…..buy by R.Knox……aka RevPhule God knows your alive……. he just doesn’t care.

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Thanks. I have designed a few for myself, I have checked a few local shops, and I have been checking the web for a design for the last few weeks.  I just haven’t really found what I’m looking for and thought ya’ll could help me out. Miah – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any reason that when I asked a question, all I got was bullshit answers?? Because it was a bullshit question. If having a tribal cross tattoo, or any tattoo at all is so hellfire important to you, then perhaps you should put some personal thought into what you want it to look like and not ask other people to do your research for you. No one serious around here or what? Everyone here is VERY serious, especially about tattoos … and flaming people who don’t have a clue (not saying I always do, but they’ve been nice to me – so far). I was downtown today and went into three tattoo shops … each had a wide variety of tribal type cross designs (and artists who might be willing to design one just for you). I’m sure the selection is just as good anywhere. You might want to try walking INTO a tattoo shop … as a first step towards getting one. Just an idea … Orb http://orbizart.tripod.com

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, how ’bout this:  Take your Bible with you, and during your Jeddah stopover, start reading it aloud and attempting to convert the locals. They LOVE that over there! << Don’t display *any* sign of any religion other than the Moslem faith. Long ago, I was part of an air-crew, and I had to wear a long sleeved uniform shirt to cover a small cross-tattoo on my upper arm.  It could have been a death sentence for me if it had been seen.

More hysteria:  Howz’bout bringing along a few hard-core porn mags to peruse during your layover? Unowhoooo… Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Trust me, I will not be bringing alcohol or religious materials… but all that flying without beer..guess I’ll have to make up for it when I get to my final destination…  : – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, how ’bout this:  Take your Bible with you, and during your Jeddah stopover, start reading it aloud and attempting to convert the locals. They LOVE that over there! << Don’t display *any* sign of any religion other than the Moslem faith. Long ago, I was part of an air-crew, and I had to wear a long sleeved uniform shirt to cover a small cross-tattoo on my upper arm.  It could have been a death sentence for me if it had been seen.

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Okay, how ’bout this:  Take your Bible with you, and during your Jeddah

stopover, start reading it aloud and attempting to convert the locals. They LOVE that over there! << Don’t display *any* sign of any religion other than the Moslem faith. Long ago, I was part of an air-crew, and I had to wear a long sleeved uniform shirt to cover a small cross-tattoo on my upper arm.  It could have been a death sentence for me if it had been seen.

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Don’t be surprised to see some f/as wearing long sleeved/neck to toe dresses…. prayers during taxi for take off and prayers in the aisles during prayer times. I remember on a 14 hour flight between Riyadh and Washington Dulles…. female passengers use huge black sheets to cover their seating space so they can un cover themselves from the traditional black habayas. It seemed like the cabin was some refugee camp with tons of tents. We had a one hour stop in NewYork, where most of the pax deplaned. It looked like some twister went through the cabin with all the trash/diapers etc left in the aisles and under seats. The stewardesses are mostly of Lebanese/Egyptian/Syrian origin. You don’t see them much during the flight. I would advise you to carry a bottle of water and whatever you may think necessary. Don’t even think about carrying any narcotics into SaudiArabia, as it is a good cause of getting one’s neck slashed. Same goes with alcohol. The latter is not served/allowed on Saudia aircraft. Have fun! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Trust me, I will not be bringing alcohol or religious materials… but all that flying without beer..guess I’ll have to make up for it when I get to my final destination…  : Okay, how ’bout this:  Take your Bible with you, and during your Jeddah stopover, start reading it aloud and attempting to convert the locals. They LOVE that over there! << Don’t display *any* sign of any religion other than the Moslem faith. Long ago, I was part of an air-crew, and I had to wear a long sleeved uniform shirt to cover a small cross-tattoo on my upper arm.  It could have been a death sentence for me if it had been seen.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I want to know if anyone has flown Saudia Arabian lately, I will be on the 747-300, 747-400 and the 777, how was service etc.  BTW I will have to spend 4 hours in the Jeddah  Airport (won’t be able to go through customs)  any info on this airport?  I expect it to be a very boring stopover, however, I can’t beat the price. Thanks B.Y.O.B.!  ;-) Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

I’m sure the B. Y. O. B. comment was meant as a joke, but don’t get caught trying to get liquor into Saudi Arabia.  The punishment can be severe.

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I’m sure the B. Y. O. B. comment was meant as a joke, but don’t get caught trying to get liquor into Saudi Arabia.  The punishment can be severe.

Okay, how ’bout this:  Take your Bible with you, and during your Jeddah stopover, start reading it aloud and attempting to convert the locals. They LOVE that over there!  ;-) Mike Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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I want to know if anyone has flown Saudia Arabian lately, I will be on the 747-300, 747-400 and the 777, how was service etc.  BTW I will have to spend 4 hours in the Jeddah  Airport (won’t be able to go through customs)  any info on this airport?  I expect it to be a very boring stopover, however, I can’t beat the price. Thanks

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I want to know if anyone has flown Saudia Arabian lately, I will be on the 747-300, 747-400 and the 777, how was service etc.  BTW I will have to spend 4 hours in the Jeddah  Airport (won’t be able to go through customs)  any info on this airport?  I expect it to be a very boring stopover, however, I can’t beat the price. Thanks

B.Y.O.B.!  ;-) Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Question:

Rikki Lake’s show is done by freaks and geeks for simple-minded carnival goers who would pay to see a car wreck. Can’t expect much more from them.

I was wondering if anyone on the show were truly Witches.   I knew a guy once who lied to the Jerry Springer show.   The reason I question the validity is because the stories a bit much.   Also, I seems that if they were truly serious, they would have had a better command of their believes.   Christian kids that are serious could run circles around those kids about knowledge of their religion, Christianity I mean.  I believe that some them where just trying to get on TV.

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wow.  glad you all commented on this show with a very wide perspective of what you came away from viewing it with. Sounds to me like the difference between young kids not having role models of the same witches and pagans we do, is the difference between them and us. Sounds to me like maybe someone else who watched now realizes that there is a goddess religion and maybe they will be a bit more tolerant. hey– I’m broke so the two cent opinion will have to be an I.O.U. *B*B CRD

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Hi A cross does not necessarily mean a person is not wiccan. Crosses have other meanings besides that of Christianity. One interpretation of a cross looks more like a plus sign and symbolizes man standing at the centre of nature. The Oriental cross symbolizes the journey of one’s soul through life. Just as many Christians think the pentagram is a symbol of the devil, we can’t do the same and assume the only thing a cross stands for in Christianity. Many cultures all over the world have cross like symbols that aren’t associated with Christianity.

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A cross does not necessarily mean a person is not wiccan. Crosses have other meanings besides that of Christianity. One interpretation of a cross looks more like a plus sign and symbolizes man standing at the centre of nature. The Oriental cross symbolizes the journey of one’s soul through life. Just as many Christians think the pentagram is a symbol of the devil, we can’t do the same and assume the only thing a cross stands for in Christianity. Many cultures all over the world have cross like symbols that aren’t associated with Christianity

Right on, yes, you took the words right out of my mouth.  Perfect.  I personally do where a cross because it was a gift from my father.   When I decided to become Wiccan I took it off, but I felt completely different, unsure, hesitant, I put it back on and I was okay.  I wear my cross to honor my father because I love him.  And just because I wear it does not mean I am some kind of Christain wannabe witch.  It’s meaningless or "sacreligious" to some, but not to me.  This is a point at which we agree to disagree.  I think it’s right, therefore it is, for me. Peace, Izzy

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ah yeah, well, the cross is an ancient symbol of the Tree of Life.  Hmm. so are we when we stand and spread our arms out to the side.  Hey, even snow angels work.

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you are right -i was close minded of that—i never considered the things you mentioned -she did say it was a gift from a friend–

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Hi A cross does not necessarily mean a person is not wiccan. Crosses have other meanings besides that of Christianity. One interpretation of a cross looks more like a plus sign and symbolizes man standing at the centre of nature. The Oriental cross symbolizes the journey of one’s soul through life. Just as many Christians think the pentagram is a symbol of the devil, we can’t do the same and assume the only thing a cross stands for in Christianity. Many cultures all over the world have cross like symbols that aren’t associated with Christianity.

Right. A cross could mean the crossroads of life and death. This world and the next. — XReplyToTheAttentionOfRenTheCatElvisJ.R.III?cAbAlX XUploadAllYourAccountBalancesToSwissBankAccountNumber X X             07051998 13013 333 696 666              X XPleaseForgetYouEverSawThisSignatureAndHaveANiceDay   X *Legend:X==!=F.N.O.R.D.ReaderSPersonalOnlineBank  XXX

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi A cross does not necessarily mean a person is not wiccan. Crosses have other meanings besides that of Christianity. One interpretation of a cross looks more like a plus sign and symbolizes man standing at the centre of nature. The Oriental cross symbolizes the journey of one’s soul through life. Just as many Christians think the pentagram is a symbol of the devil, we can’t do the same and assume the only thing a cross stands for in Christianity. Many cultures all over the world have cross like symbols that aren’t associated with Christianity. Right. A cross could mean the crossroads of life and death. This world and the next.

A cross is just a penis.

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I also agree. Most people on the show say the belive in ‘ god ‘ Of the christan sort and they do not even know why. I noticed that the talk show host was like- your not goning to get mad…. and it just made me feel like, ‘ what do people really think this is?’ But then again uncontrolled energy could get out-of-hand. And where dose it say that witches dress in black?- Even though you have your black magick -In the christan religion you have rebels of the Roman Catholic Church.   tree

Witches are supposed to dress in black and eat babies because it’s just a reversal of dressing in white and eating babies…..which curiously enough is what the Romans thought about Christians…… Ted http://www.teleport.com/~seebert

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Well the show today was an absolute farce, with no effort to show the truth or the possible benefits of Magic.  The parents were some of the most narrow minded, predjuiced people I have ever seen. The kids presented were not knowledgeable or had the least bit of interest in trying to show what the truth is.  The HPS was the only worthwile aspect of the show. Blessings, Vincce

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Having posted here once already on this topic, I will just say this check out my review of the show at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/1890 Brightest Blessings, Vince

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I’ll second that, she was breath of common sense to the show. I wish I could go on that show. Dressed in high heels, business suit, you know standard San Francisco high tech business dress, aka the powersuit.. The kids were sad. Tia wasn’t too bad but the rest sigh. Wulfrenne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well the show today was an absolute farce, with no effort to show the truth or the possible benefits of Magic.  The parents were some of the most narrow minded, predjuiced people I have ever seen. The kids presented were not knowledgeable or had the least bit of interest in trying to show what the truth is.  The HPS was the only worthwile aspect of the show. Blessings, Vincce

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Well the show today was an absolute farce, with no effort to show the truth or the possible benefits of Magic.  The parents were some of the most narrow minded, predjuiced people I have ever seen. The kids presented were not knowledgeable or had the least bit of interest in trying to show what the truth is.  The HPS was the only worthwile aspect of the show. Blessings, Vincce

Yes I agree, and they put the HP on so near the end of the show that by that time damage control was almost impossible. Being new to the craft(2 yrs) I didn’t realize how hostile many christians are towards wicca because of ignorance. I wish there had been more time for the true aspects of our religion to be shared.         Linda

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I loved it when those two women stood up in the audience –telling the I wanna -be -Witches about themselves—well i enjoyed the one lady telling them love spells and so on cross the line of  the Rede —oh and then the first girl from the audience that this girl who thinks shes a Witch –IS WEARING A DAMM CROSS—-i was just thinking—No ShiT –and so any way i was thinking of setting them up–perhaps not yet because –my family would be pissed about me wanting or even thinking about going on the show –but like this —going on the show pretending to be a depressed teen–and then going on stage and –of course setting them –uncrookedly -straight –what do you all think

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What do you expect from day-time tabloid television? Jerry Springer and Rikki Lake are freak shows. Cairns

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I also agree. Most people on the show say the belive in ‘ god ‘ Of the christan sort and they do not even know why. I noticed that the talk show host was like- your not goning to get mad…. and it just made me feel like, ‘ what do people really think this is?’ But then again uncontrolled energy could get out-of-hand. And where dose it say that witches dress in black?- Even though you have your black magick -In the christan religion you have rebels of the Roman Catholic Church.   tree

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—oh and then the first girl from the audience that this girl who thinks shes a Witch –IS WEARING A DAMM CROSS—-

ok this is a little touchy for me….i consider myself wiccan and i have been known to wear a cross. why? decoration pure and simple. maybe a few leftovers from my christian upbringing. i dont know.  i even have a celtic cross tattoo on my wrist.  this reminds me of when i was a teenager and wearing rosaries around my neck (ok i had a madonna thing going).  religious fanatics would literally RIP them from my neck, tell me i had "no right" to wear the cross. well newsflash–we all have the right to wear whatevr we choose…i have respect for all religions. dont think what i wear is conflicting with my faith.  i have a friend who wears white laces in his docs and was recently asked "but what does it SYMBOLIZE?" his reply-"i dont wear my politics on my boots!" blessed be, ~moiRa p.s. forgive me if this makes no sense, i have cramps and i’m sleepy. ~**~…how heroes can be so delicately surrounded by ice…~**~ ~**~…that their eyes shine and promises are spoken…~**~ ~**~…in a glacial cloud of smoke~**~

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Rikki Lake’s show is done by freaks and geeks for simple-minded carnival goers who would pay to see a car wreck. Can’t expect much more from them. Well the show today was an absolute farce, with no effort to show the truth or the possible benefits of Magic.  The parents were some of the most narrow minded, predjuiced people I have ever seen. The kids presented were not knowledgeable or had the least bit of interest in trying to show what the truth is.  The HPS was the only worthwile aspect of the show. Blessings, Vincce

–     Wicca Works! at:  http://www.atlantic.net/~wiccan/ (distributors) http://members.tripod.com/~wiccan1/index.htm Articles-Jewelry-Tiles-Chalices-Poetry-ClipArt-Other(!)Stuff

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Question:

Something that’s been bothering me for a while. I’ve seen lots of pictures of nifty bells and chains and padlocks that go with body jewelery, but I can’t seem to find that kind of stuf anywhere. I can work with makeshift craft jingle bells but does anybody know where I can find stuf beyond the usual rings and barbells and skull beads? — KirK <a href= http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/csluder.html Kirk Job Sluder </a

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Something that’s been bothering me for a while. I’ve seen lots of pictures of nifty bells and chains and padlocks that go with body jewelery, but I can’t seem to find that kind of stuf anywhere. I can work with makeshift craft jingle bells but does anybody know where I can find stuf beyond the usual rings and barbells and skull beads?

I know that within Tattoo magazine, and many others, there is a place that sells bells, padlocks, barbells, and various other things I can’t remember without looking at the advertisement.  You could try them.  They are in Europe, I believe.  I could be wrong about that, though.

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: of nifty bells and chains and padlocks that go with body jewelery, but I : can’t seem to find that kind of stuf anywhere. I can work with makeshift : craft jingle bells but does anybody know where I can find stuf beyond the : usual rings and barbells and skull beads? : I know that within Tattoo magazine, and many others, there is a place : that sells bells, padlocks, barbells, and various other things I can’t : remember without looking at the advertisement.  You could try them.  They : are in Europe, I believe.  I could be wrong about that, though. The company in question is Wildcat, located in England.  While on honeymoon we picked up a couple of padlock style "rings" (a screwdriver is needed to "lock" the jewelry).  The make a huge selection of septum spikes, labret ends (spikes, balls, etc.) and other unique items. Remember that their gauges are not matched to US Browne & Sharpe gauges (they do everything in mm), but close enough approximations can be made for healed piercings. Body Adornments and Venus Modern Body Arts carry/make custom body chains to be worn from piercing to piercing.  Venus has a good selection of sterling and gold jewelry they have modified to be used as captives in place of a bead.  Pleasurable Piercings has a wide selection of captive sterling pendants – skulls, penis, naked lady, cross, tattoo gun…they should have a full color catalog available in January.  At the moment they have a flier with photos of all the pendants available. —                               * Ardvark *                             Anne Greenblatt                Piercing FAQ Manager for rec.arts.bodyart                         Piercing  Exquisite <                                    *

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The company in question is Wildcat, located in England.  While on honeymoon we picked up a couple of padlock style "rings" (a screwdriver is needed to "lock" the jewelry).  The make a huge selection of septum spikes, labret ends (spikes, balls, etc.) and other unique items. Remember that their gauges are not matched to US Browne & Sharpe gauges (they do everything in mm), but close enough approximations can be made for healed piercings.

Yes, that IS the place I was referring to.  A screwdriver has to lock the jewellery?  OUCH!

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Regarding bells and chains and stuff… One of the things most driving me when I originally had my nipples done was the image of a friend who had a chain between the rings. I went to a u-make-it bead store and got the lobster-claw clips for either side and a length of inexpensive chain and made my own first one. Later a friend who does custom chainmail made me a birthday present of a lovely <and unfortunately since broken lacey chainmail custom suspension. I’m in the process of guaging back to my 10g tapered ovals <from Body Circles Designs of Seattle <<had to go down to 14g to fight an infection from temporarily putting cheapo but cute barbells in…argh!. Once I get the tens back in and rehealed, I’ll start working on making another chain for suspension. I guess my answer is – don’t be afraid of creating your own. I can’t recall seeing anything decent ready-made. Nursie NURSE RATCHET AT SHADOWPLAY Why, yes, I AM an agent of the Devil… …but my duties are primarily ceremonial. —                    Cyberspace with an EDGE!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regarding bells and chains and stuff… One of the things most driving me when I originally had my nipples done was the image of a friend who had a chain between the rings. I went to a u-make-it bead store and got the lobster-claw clips for either side and a length of inexpensive chain and made my own first one. Later a friend who does custom chainmail made me a birthday present of a lovely <and unfortunately since broken lacey chainmail custom suspension. <snip in…argh!. Once I get the tens back in and rehealed, I’ll start working on making another chain for suspension. I guess my answer is – don’t be afraid of creating your own. I can’t recall seeing anything decent ready-made.

My problem when going into a piercing place for a chain was that I wanted a … um, ‘dainty’ chain. The problem was that their thin chains also had small clasps which wouldn’t fit around my 10ga. I guess I could have just popped the beads off and slipped the ends through the clasps, but that’s a bit complicated and I’d prefer to be able to get the chain off somewhat quickly. I guess I could have gone with a larger clasp, but that was completely out of proportion with the rest of the chain (never mind the chain being out of proportion with the rings What I finally did was loop a cheap necklace through both rings. Works so long as you don’t mind two pieces of chain going between your rings and you can get necklaces anywhere. The lady (I’m lousy with names) at Body Manipulations was very helpful. She told me that a local art supply store had lots of different clasps and even a selection of chain if I was willing to make it myself (and save a few $ too, I suppose). I haven’t had the opportunity to drop by there yet (hmmm… I wonder if they’ll have small padlocks? Um, Nurse Ratchet, what exactly is a ‘chain for suspension’? -huie — Mark Huie                                    "Pooh hasn’t got very much                                              "and he might do something                                              silly, and I do love him so."

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Regarding bells and chains and stuff… I guess my answer is – don’t be afraid of creating your own. I can’t recall seeing anything decent ready-made.

I agree… I have 15 earrings in my right ear and 10 in my left. I made my own 18k baby sized hoops.. because I couldn’t find them anywhere. Good piercing jewelry is hard to find… and the places that do carry it tend to be expensive. Nursie’s suggestion of making it yourself ( or if your not a jewler get someone who is to help) is a good one. I  have a jewler freind who told me he used to make custom body piercing jewelry… he would trade his work with a local tatoo artist for free tatoos. sounds like a good deal to me. Since I am a jewler myself…. well I just make what I want.  My sugestion is to find a local custom jewler and show him/her a gauntlet catalouge… from there perhaps you can work something out. Becky B.

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