Money Tattoos

Vacation anxiety

admin — Tue, 28 Feb 2006 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hi everyone, My anxiety has been in check for the last 5 weeks or so since I started on Effexor but today is a different story. I am going away for a week down to the shore and I have a million and one things to do but because of the anxiety I can’t get very much done. I have basically walked around all day thinking about the things that have to be done. This is very typical behavior that I had before the meds, I get overwhelmed and can’t focus. Anyway, just thought I would post here and maybe someone can offer some words of encouragement. 4 other people are counting on me to get everything done. Thanks Jonathan

Response:

Hi, One of the things which will help immediately (and is quite easy) is to not think too far ahead. Yes, you need to get a lot done, but I tend to think only about an hour ahead when I have a lot to do. Write a list of the things you need to get done so you don’t forget any of them, then just focus on when you are going to do them, and only mentally focus on the next hour ahead- what are you going to do in that hour? If I have a week with lots of stressful events in it, I get really, really overwhelmed with anxiety very quickly if I start thinking ‘how am I going to do this, then that, then that, all in one week?". It’s even worse if I have a lot to do in one day. By only thinking in small blocks of time though, things are much easier. As a last note, this problem was also experienced by a friend of mine who doesn’t suffer from anxiety problems. He admitted that he often gets frightened thinking of deadlines, etc, that are close together (as most people do I think), and that he routinely has to focus on each hour of the day when he is very busy and not think about what is happening later. Martin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone, My anxiety has been in check for the last 5 weeks or so since I started on Effexor but today is a different story. I am going away for a week down to the shore and I have a million and one things to do but because of the anxiety I can’t get very much done. I have basically walked around all day thinking about the things that have to be done. This is very typical behavior that I had before the meds, I get overwhelmed and can’t focus. Anyway, just thought I would post here and maybe someone can offer some words of encouragement. 4 other people are counting on me to get everything done. Thanks Jonathan

Response:

Just a thought Jonathan, Is it possible to contact the 4 others and ask to split the list? Take care, Meryl

Response:

Hi Jonathan, I understand what you’re saying so well. I have just returned from a week away and the week before I left I was making so many lists of things to do but not actually getting anything done. My anxiety was sky high. In the end I decided that if I didn’t get everything done before I went it didn’t really matter. Is there anything on your list of things to do that isn’t really that important? If that’s not possible I would suggest just trying to concentrate on one thing at a time. I know that’s easy to say bit not so easy to do. Another suggestion for you..Is there any way that the other 4 people could help you get these things done? Carol..

Response:

Why are you ALLOWING 4 other people to count on you to get everything done? Unless they are very young children they should be helping YOU out. Why not say to them you can’t do it all by yourself and you’d like them to to xyz if they want it to get done? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone, My anxiety has been in check for the last 5 weeks or so since I started on Effexor but today is a different story. I am going away for a week down to the shore and I have a million and one things to do but because of the anxiety I can’t get very much done. I have basically walked around all day thinking about the things that have to be done. This is very typical behavior that I had before the meds, I get overwhelmed and can’t focus. Anyway, just thought I would post here and maybe someone can offer some words of encouragement. 4 other people are counting on me to get everything done. Thanks Jonathan

Response:

Jonathen, sweetie…don’t be a doormat. We just cannot let that happen. 4 other people should be sharing the load and pitching in to make the vacation a success. I’ve people-pleased till I had blisters on my kneecaps…don’t let this happen to you! Make a list and break the jobs down into parts…use a systems analysis approach. Don’t be afraid to ask for…and expect…help. Tell us a few of the things you need to do…that can help you start your list. When do you leave? How long will you be away? Peace, John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone, My anxiety has been in check for the last 5 weeks or so since I started on Effexor but today is a different story. I am going away for a week down to the shore and I have a million and one things to do but because of the anxiety I can’t get very much done. I have basically walked around all day thinking about the things that have to be done. This is very typical behavior that I had before the meds, I get overwhelmed and can’t focus. Anyway, just thought I would post here and maybe someone can offer some words of encouragement. 4 other people are counting on me to get everything done. Thanks Jonathan

Response:

Hey John, I guess at this point I have most things under control somewhat but will probably be up all night packing and finishing laundry. Just got back from THE BIG K, had to pick up a few things. 3 of the 4 people in question are small children so can’t really expect much help there and the other promises to help out when they get home from work. We are leaving around noon tomorrow and will be gone for a week. I am bringing my laptop but don’t think I will be able to post as this newsgroup is only available to me through Comcast Giganews and I wont have a cable connection. Thank you for your support…."BRO" Jonathan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jonathen, sweetie…don’t be a doormat. We just cannot let that happen. 4 other people should be sharing the load and pitching in to make the vacation a success. I’ve people-pleased till I had blisters on my kneecaps…don’t let this happen to you! Make a list and break the jobs down into parts…use a systems analysis approach. Don’t be afraid to ask for…and expect…help. Tell us a few of the things you need to do…that can help you start your list. When do you leave? How long will you be away? Peace, John Hi everyone, My anxiety has been in check for the last 5 weeks or so since I started on Effexor but today is a different story. I am going away for a week down to the shore and I have a million and one things to do but because of the anxiety I can’t get very much done. I have basically walked around all day thinking about the things that have to be done. This is very typical behavior that I had before the meds, I get overwhelmed and can’t focus. Anyway, just thought I would post here and maybe someone can offer some words of encouragement. 4 other people are counting on me to get everything done. Thanks Jonathan

Response:

Martin, Carol and Albee Thanks so much, it helped just to vent a bit. I am sure my anxiety level will decrease tomorrow once I am no my way. The making a list suggestion is a great one unfortunatly I never can bring myself to do it. I know it would help in all areas of my life. Take care, Jonathan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are you ALLOWING 4 other people to count on you to get everything done? Unless they are very young children they should be helping YOU out. Why not say to them you can’t do it all by yourself and you’d like them to to xyz if they want it to get done? Hi everyone, My anxiety has been in check for the last 5 weeks or so since I started on Effexor but today is a different story. I am going away for a week down to the shore and I have a million and one things to do but because of the anxiety I can’t get very much done. I have basically walked around all day thinking about the things that have to be done. This is very typical behavior that I had before the meds, I get overwhelmed and can’t focus. Anyway, just thought I would post here and maybe someone can offer some words of encouragement. 4 other people are counting on me to get everything done. Thanks Jonathan

Response:

Hi Jonathan, Venting is always good ) List making is a hobby of me. I have it off to a fine art now. That doesn’t mean to say that I ever do everything on the list though ! I just like to write it all down. LOL.. Enjoy your week away Jonathan and have fun ! Love Carol.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are you ALLOWING 4 other people to count on you to get everything done? Unless they are very young children they should be helping YOU out. Why not say to them you can’t do it all by yourself and you’d like them to to xyz if they want it to get done? Hi everyone, My anxiety has been in check for the last 5 weeks or so since I started on Effexor but today is a different story. I am going away for a week down to the shore and I have a million and one things to do but because of the anxiety I can’t get very much done. I have basically walked around all day thinking about the things that have to be done. This is very typical behavior that I had before the meds, I get overwhelmed and can’t focus. Anyway, just thought I would post here and maybe someone can offer some words of encouragement. 4 other people are counting on me to get everything done. Thanks Jonathan

Response:

I think maybe not. I believe that obligation means "must go" and I feel there are no MUST anythings. MUST also takes options out of the equation, to a great extent.

ELLIOTT !!!!! dang. an obligation is NOT’ah must. hell… payin’ yer phone bill’s an obligation… it don’t mean ya MUST pay it. sure, there’s consequences when avoiding an obligation, and those MUST be considered if the consequences are written in stone. (OR ma bell will consider em for ya.) one may be "obliged" to consider the consequences the more obscure consequences. for instance: i feel an obligation to "life" as nature surely saw fit ta gift me or taunt me with (whatever the perspective of my moment is) to participate. otherwise, i’d damn sure sleep all day and NEVER leave tha house. nobody said i "MUST" participate, but let’s look at the consequences: i’d never have lived all over tha U.S., had many successful business ventures, many failures in that arena, as well (i cherish both) and i’d have never dated the cool guys i dated in other states and countries, i’d never had met you, i’d never have come to ANY fork in tha road and taken it, i’d never have gone down a ‘beaten path’ and discovered dy-no-mite areas to speelunk or caught 2 guys havin’ sex on’ah rock, i’d never have dreaded my hair, shaved my head or dyed my hair every color of the rainbow, i’d never have even SEEN a rainbow, much less a double rainbow. i’d never have broken my foot steppin’ in’ah manhole when i was drunk in berkley at 3 am, i’d never have puked for 3 days after eatin’ 4 dozen oysters and drank tequila cuz i just HAD ta go to tha same restaurant rob reiner did in "sleepless in seattle" at pike place market and pretend i was him. basically i’d not have the overloaded "memory bank" i have now. now those are my OWN esoteric visions of my consequences. considering i see them as important, i feel "obligated" to continue my life as an "opportunist". in no way do i feel that i "must". on the other hand, that phone bill? i MUST pay it or my phone’s cut off. THAT obligation is a "MUST" for me, the consequences are dire, in my world… and i DO so hate partin’ with tha almighty dollar, but i am obligated and MUST if i wanna get online or have 89 hour conversations with muh baby dad. obligation is "self-talk" (is that a psycho babble term? ick) for me, it gets me off my fat, wide, white, lazy ass. now……. YOU are obligated to call me cuz i love you more’n i love tha Mission District, the telephones in tha bathroom in marriott hotels, and muh luggage all put tagether….that don’t mean ya MUST. unless the consequence was, assuredly, that all yer hair would fall out and if ya really like yer hair, you’d call. the only consequence, actually, is one that YOU decide, (wellllll… one is, of course, you never get ta talk to yer admirer and tha coolest chick on tha planet)… but that’m my OWN version of yer consequence, cuz i’m ostentatious like that. your version may be "way" different. lalalalalalala that said… there’s a HUGE difference between "obligation" and "must" Gary: 1 Elliott: 0 (SEVEN MINUTES IN THA PENALTY BOX, NO SPITTIN’) now call me ! xoxoxoxo ~tanya

Response:

Hi Sharon: I’m laughing at the moment. Actually I do like Elliott, as well as one can like someone who is only known by typed words on a plasma screen. More importantly, I respect his opinions because they come from a lot of very hard work on a number of fronts in his life. This is why I am honest, when I agree, and when I don’t. Actually Elliott is the one person here who, when a very vicious and icky individual from Pennsylvania told him something that I just COULD not abide, I actually lost my temper, and cyber-stomped that person, to the point that I became rather inappropriate. He was "accused" of causing a very bad circumstance for his spouse and even his pets, and it was vile to the point that I was unable to contain my contemptuous reaction to it. If I didn’t like him, that would never have happened. I have difficulty tolerating people who aren’t honest, so I try to present an honest statement with some degree of diplomacy in a mutually respectful cyberspace, even when Elliott refers to me as ‘his peach’. LOL Can he be annoying? Yes, now and then, but he takes that effort quite seriously, and considers it a central role of his. Who am I to try to deny him that, given its import? To wit: "I believe I was put here to annoy the hell out of people" (actually that may not be quoted verbatim – but I reeeealy don’t feel like looking it up, and it’s pretty close if not exact). I’m quoting, but actually I don’t think he really actually thinks that all the time, and I’m just having some fun with it. I have seen him be very helpful to people with nothing to gain from it except the probable satisfaction of having done so, and I definitely respect that as well. I suspect that some small part of my personality is similar to some small part of his, the one that just won’t be put down on the floor again, in my case, and gets pissed if it thinks that’s about to happen, and confuses disagreement with threat once in a while with no defensable reason (I’m speaking for myself, again. I would never be so presumptuous as to speculate on what makes Elliott occasionally – rarely – a little bellicose) Thankfully we both have higher selves and it is those selves that banter the vast majority of the time. G

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the reason that I’m even re-visiting this at all is because her avoidance appears to have come straight from the ‘catastrophizing department’ of her mind. We all know how to get to that department, and many of us are fairly good at walking away from it also. The presented/perceived options are (a) go on a wonderful vacation and come home in a straight-jacket or (b) go nowhere/have "re-run" vacation in Toronto. At least that’s what I’m seeing here. I’m sure you would agree that there are other "options" besides those two scenarios. The OP cites fear of losing mind while flying - not to minimize her symptoms or their import in Sharon’s life, but that is really a rather common issue with phobic or panic material, as you surely know. It’s pharmacy solvable (likely), and she also catastrophized that. Rather than taking some meds to tolerate flying and not "lose my mind", she spoke of going to a beach paradise and "staying wasted half the time" (which personally …..well, that would just be so untoward, never mind). Is "staying wasted half the time" a bit catastrophic maybe? Is it also the ONLY option, if we bring pharmacy solutions in here? Rhetoric, I apologize…….(question withdrawn) I made the statements I made, which I still believe are a valid and reasonable approach, btw, because it is almost blatantly obvious that Sharon DOES want to have this experience, but is depressed, tired and just doesn’t have the energy right now to do the cognitive restructure on the issue which she (very likely) probably wants to do. I could be wrong – but if I’m not, and she decides to change her mind because of one piece of encouragement derived from ‘whomever’ – and that’s what I come here for in the first place. I appreciate EVERY bit of advice I’ve received here, and it has been valuable as well. But…talk about IRONY. After reading responses here, I decided on a plan of action. I was soooo depressed anyway that I thought, "why not take a chance on something????" A bit of background…my BF is, overall, a supportive person but has his own personal issues….as well he might, considering his childhood. We’re two "wounded" people trying to make sense of our lives and each other…….and it isn’t always a wonderful relationship. He’s Irish, salt please…I have Irish blood in my veins also) So, he isn’t the perfectly "safe" person for me, but I don’t expect that of anyone. toward a vacation, using incremental exposure to approach the May vacation. I went to Expedia.com and thought about what short flight I could take to find out, in the first place, if I even still have a flying phobia. My BF has all of next week off, was going to go to Myrtle Beach to play looking at flights for next week. Once I decide on something, I want to jump into it asap. I looked up flights from Ithaca, NY to Norfolk, VA. A car from there, and lodgings for 3 nights on the outer banks of North Carolina. Found a hotel there that seemed lovely, oceanfront and all…..indoor/outdoor I MADE THE RESERVATION FOR THE HOTEL…..what a step for me. Didn’t confirm the flights, was waiting on word from my BF that all was well on his end for this trip. But me….it really sounds pathetic, considering how far this is to fly, and how dull it is compared to going directly to Ta-Ta Island, but I was feeling excited as all hell. My BF has diabetes, and his numbers have been running really high (due to job stress, I feel) When I told him about all of this, he said that he had to get to the doctor next week. I can understand we did have quite an argument, because I know that he could have seen effectively took the wind out of my sails…….was very negative, and I realized that he was just not into this trip. God, I was so looking forward to coming here and posting about what I was going to do. I felt so damned proud of myself. I felt that if I made these flights successfully that the next step could easily be a trip to Costa Rica…….I had started to visualize myself getting on a plane, and recalled how much I used to love the feeling of it’s of being "stuck" in a situation or place) My feelings are all over the place right now, I’m pissed off w/my BF, I’ve opened a window that I won’t easily close again. Damn, if I need to find another flying partner, if that’s what it takes, I’ll do it. I always ramble like hell here, sorry about that. then it was worth the time to post the encouragement. This is my own view on it. My views are reflective of opportunities lost to anxiety over the years You and Elliot do like to go at it, Gary…..I would like to see you two duke it out in a boxing ring for Thinkers. NO physical contact, only rhetoric allowed. Bottom line – I think maybe, and you think maybe not. Sharon will figure it out. I will figure everything out and solve the problem of world hunger

Response:

Balls! It’s ‘cojones,’ as someone pointed out to me a few years ago (to point out to someone else…..er, forget it

LOL, no, I just impersonate a JAP pretty damned well……learned it at college in NYC, had to listen to them on the dorm elevators every day. I found a great solution….they’d be going on about their father buying them the WRONG Luis Vuitton bag for their birthday, and after enough of this……I would quote from, say, Joseph Heller (Catch-22) and say loudly and flatly, "You’ve got flies in your eyes." They’d stop their chatter for a while….then I’d add, "That’s why you can’t see them, because you’ve got flies in your eyes." Then they’d push the button for the next floor and beat a hasty retreat……and I’d have the elevator to myself. camcorder. Rowrrrr.

Response:

"My experience spells "obligation" (and going along just because one FEELS they MUST) as P O O R O U T C O M E" Yes, and that’s the obvious reason for our differing points of view. I’ll elaborate (possibly my failure to do so before is part of this venture into polite cyber-disagreement) "Anxiety disorder folks need every single bit of self to recover. One bit given away usually leads to another piece given away." Absolutely. If I even thought that anything I wanted to say with intent to help was going to cause that, I’d just omit it. I’d rather err on the side of caution, and loss of self is not acceptable to me at all, in terms of anyone. "One doesn’t ‘go’ to pay taxes – one just sends them a note that they can keep your money " Well, yes. But ya have to send it. There are *some* must-do’s, however that is NOT AT ALL what I was talking about, as the essence of my suggestion. "My aim is to relate my experiences with what has worked and what has not." I respect that, and in the process of these discussions I sometimes change my mind, or add a new idea to the present one. Sometimes not, but that is ok too. "The ‘go and do because it’ll please someone else’ or ‘go and do because it seems the right/best thing to do’ or ‘go because I’m obligated to’ are the types of things that I feel are long term mistakes." I think this is where the rubber meets the road here. You (so it appears) are equating obligation with loss of self, people-pleasing, and generally just not having things "go well" because they transpired on someone else’s terms. That absolutely and undeniably CAN be what comes from those losses, or patronizations of others – but is not what I intended. I would never endorse such things, and probably have even MORE resistance to that sort of stuff than you yourself, Elliott. My "obligation" comment was more in the sense of perfunctory obligation, such as paying the electric bill, vacuuming my car (yearly whether it needs it or not), showing up for a valued (by me) family event, etc. That’s why I added, "just a part of the year". I certainly would not ever approach obligation from the standpoint that you have (certainly very well) laid out here. Of course it should not be done as "obligation to another", my thinking was in terms of "basic obligation" or more to the point "obligation to the self". My communication may have been the problem here – that probably should have been elaborated better on post number one. "I wasn’t allowing time, nor suggesting a long drawn out cognitive focus. That’s to be worked on for the future – and full time." When I read that, I immediately began thinking that maybe (very probably actually) my anxiety stuff just doesn’t have the same intensity as some (or even many) of the other people here. That would obviously make me less of an asset in dispensing advice to people about how to re-think, or re-frame, and many other aspects of cognitive-behavioral therapy that may never have come my way, possibly because I just didn’t need them. I don’t know the answer to that right this minute. To have a long lasting high, I believe one has to have the frame of mind that says "I want to go and do this and I feel ’somewhat’ ready to go do this."<

Yes, I totally and utterly believe the same thing. That I find so little to disagree with here is making me think that I see obligation in some centrally different way, and I know that I was thinking of it in a different way when I threw it out as a possible look-see-do. I can definitely see that "obligation" as my word choice does not "fit well" with the idea of "I want to go and do this" in the most literal sense. "I’m looking for long term goals, not short fixes." Amen. "You may wish you had done more if it, but you wouldn’t know the lasting results that may have been negative if you had." I’ll take that at face-value. It’s undeniable. "I know from my own experience that although it felt good, it was a long term fuck up to long term recovery." O.K. I totally have to believe that, because you took the time in therapy (or someplace) to examine this closely, and I never really did – so I can’t think of any valid reason to disbelieve or refute the statement, and I’ll also give thought to this now – as to how it may have affected me in terms of recovering (or possibly not having recovered optimally). "I pointed out then (in the post above that I pasted in) and will again, that if she feels ready to go, she should go. If she’s doing it just for him because she feels she owes him – that attitude is a dangerous one. I believe that to be very true." Yes, once again, we’re on the same book, chapter, verse, and page. Of course Sharon should not go on vacation for any reason besides wanting to go on vacation. Going out of "owing something" is absolutely dangerous, and I take NO issue with that. It again is apparent that I see obligation as something benign, like "February", and you see it as something much more. That does not make me "right", but I’m not positive that it makes me "wrong" either. I’ll have to think on this some more, for my own recovery’s sake. "Wrong. Bottom line is that you think maybe, and that maybe thinking of it as an ‘obligation’ might be a good cognitive strategy." I have used it, more than once, and it "seems" like it did work for me, but in examining all this, I feel a need now to consider the idea that maybe it did not. OK, I just thought of an example of where I used this once, with what "feels like/seems like" success. Maybe that will explain why I feel that it "can/might" work for some. As a young person, I was sexually assaulted in a gym shower room, twice in 20 minutes by two different thugs – one of the most vile events of my life. This obviously caused all sorts of pathology completely unknown to me until much later. At age 28, I wanted to go "buff-up" some – having lost some unwanted weight and now wanting to go further, I decided that I’d need to use the equipment in a health club, and upon touring it I realized that simply being there made me rather definitely and anxious almost to the point of intolerability. I began to simply go there, and decided to see it as "just another part of the day that I need to do, much like going to work, which I don’t always feel like doing either, but I manage to, and I do OK once I get there". It worked for me, and I actually just came back from the gym tonight, and wrote this – a new gym today, first visit, long story, not relevant. At age 28, it was difficult (very difficult) and I worked with the therapist twice a week on the various issues that surrounded it until it became comfortable. A sort of "fake it till you make it" concept, which I think comes from REBT (can’t remember for sure right now). It took surprisingly little time, maybe six or seven weeks (I don’t remember exactly), and I was completely comfortable there, and did not have to use any kind of coping technique at all; it was just like going to the pharmacy, or to an accounting practice, or anywhere else – very neutral, and became positive rapidly. Of note, the "thinking of it as a basic, normal obligation, like a job" was NOT the therapist’s idea, nor did I even tell him that I was doing that. It’s entirely possible that if I had, he would have taken some sort of tack like yours here. I don’t have any idea, but will bounce this off him in a couple days. Admittedly, that is only my experience, and may not have ANY applicablity to that of another. It may not have been the best way to approach my problem, at age 28. I can’t go back, but I can look back. Because of this "disagreement", i WILL look back, and I will also bring up obligation and it’s relevance in the next session I go to, to see what comes of it (for me). I have absolutely no vested interest in ‘being right’ here, and like yourself, I look for long-term goal attainment, not short-term fix. I certainly never meant to imply that I "know" what Sharon ought to do, I just threw an idea out, based on some experience (which, in truth, I was not even concretely recalling, at the time I wrote it – but wanted, in writing this, to think of an example, and it took about 2 minutes to recall the easiest one to describe). To sum up: I was using obligation in the sense of "need to for me", and you view the word in a much more broad sense (at least in the context of this post and the quandary presented), or at least have elaborated on it in a much more broad-scope way. I will examine this more closely, and hope to learn something new as a result. I also just wasn’t interpreting Sharon’s presentation as one of ‘wanting to please another’ as the primary motive for posting the dilemma, or for seeking a solution to dealing with the problems she has with flying. My ultimate aim is only to assist people who are troubled. Some troublesome issues may well surpass anything I can *totally* relate to, and that might be a problem with some of my postings. I am unsure right now what to think about that. I appreciate your un-flinching stance on views you have which are/were obtained by experience, and respect them, as I’ve found that many experiential views beat the crap out of those derived from theory or discussion, pep-talks, etc… so I hope you will not see this as anything adversarial, because it certainly is not. Regards, Gary

Response:

(yes, i said drunk) at the wedding

LOL…sorry, I thought that was a funny place to start your post. I am very happy for you, Angela…mornings are rough for a lot of people w/panic or anxiety, as is a cold…so you did remarkably well……the anticipatory anxiety is my biggest problem….the only plane I’ve flown in in 20 years (it doesn’t even really count in my book) was a very small plane in the Adirondacks, and I was so anxious the pilot started to take off (in the lake) I got excited as all hell…and when we got up there ^ I actually annoyed the other 3 passengers because I was whooping with every drop of the plane (I do like turbulence) and it turned into a positively positive experience. After I stopped with the whooping. Jets, on the other hand, are MUCH more daunting to me. I think it is great that you took your daughter and went on a fun vacation…..even if you are a drunk. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and luckily it didn’t make my panic spike! I think the anticipation was the worst, but i felt obligated to my daughter to show her a good time and i’m sure i would have had the major panic attack whether i was here or not, especially since i had a cold return last week). i’m glad i did it, even though the takeoff and landing of planes scare the shit out of me, xanax or no xanax, the dr. wants me to start taking the xanax xr every other day (we’re back on the addiction bullshit), although they are still more than happy to put me on lexapro (which i guess they don’t realize that your body becomes dependent to that also)! I feel pretty confidant that i might have some success with it after the trip. Hell, I didn’t even freak out when my 4 hour flight turned into a 7-8 hour trip due to layovers from the crappy airport in San Francisco (no offense to any of ya that live there). I am so glad that you are still considering it, if you get to go anywhere, you’ll be very surprised at what it does for your confidence…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the reason that I’m even re-visiting this at all is because her avoidance appears to have come straight from the ‘catastrophizing department’ of her mind. We all know how to get to that department, and many of us are fairly good at walking away from it also. The presented/perceived options are (a) go on a wonderful vacation and come home in a straight-jacket or (b) go nowhere/have "re-run" vacation in Toronto. At least that’s what I’m seeing here. I’m sure you would agree that there are other "options" besides those two scenarios. The OP cites fear of losing mind while flying - not to minimize her symptoms or their import in Sharon’s life, but that is really a rather common issue with phobic or panic material, as you surely know. It’s pharmacy solvable (likely), and she also catastrophized that. Rather than taking some meds to tolerate flying and not "lose my mind", she spoke of going to a beach paradise and "staying wasted half the time" (which personally …..well, that would just be so untoward, never mind). Is "staying wasted half the time" a bit catastrophic maybe? Is it also the ONLY option, if we bring pharmacy solutions in here? Rhetoric, I apologize…….(question withdrawn) I made the statements I made, which I still believe are a valid and reasonable approach, btw, because it is almost blatantly obvious that Sharon DOES want to have this experience, but is depressed, tired and just doesn’t have the energy right now to do the cognitive restructure on the issue which she (very likely) probably wants to do. I could be wrong – but if I’m not, and she decides to change her mind because of one piece of encouragement derived from ‘whomever’ –

and that’s what I come here for in the first place. I appreciate EVERY bit of advice I’ve received here, and it has been valuable as well. But…talk about IRONY. After reading responses here, I decided on a plan of action. I was soooo depressed anyway that I thought, "why not take a chance on something????" A bit of background…my BF is, overall, a supportive person but has his own personal issues….as well he might, considering his childhood. We’re two "wounded" people trying to make sense of our lives and each other…….and it isn’t always a wonderful relationship. He’s Irish, salt please…I have Irish blood in my veins also) So, he isn’t the perfectly "safe" person for me, but I don’t expect that of anyone. toward a vacation, using incremental exposure to approach the May vacation. I went to Expedia.com and thought about what short flight I could take to find out, in the first place, if I even still have a flying phobia. My BF has all of next week off, was going to go to Myrtle Beach to play looking at flights for next week. Once I decide on something, I want to jump into it asap. I looked up flights from Ithaca, NY to Norfolk, VA. A car from there, and lodgings for 3 nights on the outer banks of North Carolina. Found a hotel there that seemed lovely, oceanfront and all…..indoor/outdoor I MADE THE RESERVATION FOR THE HOTEL…..what a step for me. Didn’t confirm the flights, was waiting on word from my BF that all was well on his end for this trip. But me….it really sounds pathetic, considering how far this is to fly, and how dull it is compared to going directly to Ta-Ta Island, but I was feeling excited as all hell. My BF has diabetes, and his numbers have been running really high (due to job stress, I feel) When I told him about all of this, he said that he had to get to the doctor next week. I can understand we did have quite an argument, because I know that he could have seen effectively took the wind out of my sails…….was very negative, and I realized that he was just not into this trip. God, I was so looking forward to coming here and posting about what I was going to do. I felt so damned proud of myself. I felt that if I made these flights successfully that the next step could easily be a trip to Costa Rica…….I had started to visualize myself getting on a plane, and recalled how much I used to love the feeling of it’s of being "stuck" in a situation or place) My feelings are all over the place right now, I’m pissed off w/my BF, I’ve opened a window that I won’t easily close again. Damn, if I need to find another flying partner, if that’s what it takes, I’ll do it. I always ramble like hell here, sorry about that. then it was worth the time to post the encouragement. This is my own view on it. My views are reflective of opportunities lost to anxiety over the years

You and Elliot do like to go at it, Gary…..I would like to see you two duke it out in a boxing ring for Thinkers. NO physical contact, only rhetoric allowed. Bottom line – I think maybe, and you think maybe not. Sharon will figure it out.

I will figure everything out and solve the problem of world hunger

Response:

I’m so sorry to hear about your boyfriend, but congrats to you for your determination. I just got back yesterday from a week long vacation and will share my experience with you & hopefully try and keep your spirits up, in the event that you do decide to go somewhere… I left Idaho for California last Sunday the 5th at 6am in the morning. I’m going to be comletely honest and say it was extreme hell that day! I had to get up at 4 in the morning, which really screwed things up and my kid woke me up about every hour, so needless to say i did not get much sleep that night and my anxiety seems to be a little worse when i don’t sleep well… i got to the local airport here in boise at about 5:00 and had to wait for an hour!!!! In the meantime, the lights, noise and god awful carpet pattern were getting to me and i could feel a panic attack coming! I took my daily dose of 1 mg xanax xr and by the time i got to my first layover in seattle, wa i was much better! the xanax doesn’t get rid of the panic, but it does help me deal with it! Had an hour layover there and did just fine! Then my 9 yr. old and i headed off to san diego and stayed there for 3 days! Got a little freaked out after i got the rental car and got lost trying to find my way to the motel – the freaking out wasn’t pd related, though, was tired and the car rental company kept me there for an hour, giving me a run around. Not to mention my daughter was very whiny because she was tired! Made it to the motel, took a nap and headed for a beach that evening! No more problems with panic that day! Woke up the next day and we went to the san diego zoo until 4 in the afternoon! Was a little panicky that day, but worked through it for my daughter’s sake and refused to bolt, like i wanted to and after a couple of hours, the panic was gone and we had a great time! The next day on Tuesday, had the worst day of the whole week. My daughter had a temper tantrum because she wasn’t able to go on a roller coaster on mission beach that she really wanted to go on because according to their message it was closed. Made her take a nap (sure the whole temper tanrum was just her being tired and disappointed) and when she woke up we headed over to the beach and belmont park. Didn’t have any problems driving in the traffic (got lost again) or riding on the roller coaster (we got lucky and they had opened it again). While walking on the beach, for whatever reason the sound of the ocean started to make me freak out! I again, worked through it and must have done ok, because my daughter was none the wiser! We left for Buena Park, CA the next day and made the mistake of leaving at 7 in the morning! I was a little overly anxious and scared for about the first half an hour; not used to all that traffic – was a completely different world! I told myself to snap out of it, it’s only crowded traffic and relaxed! My daughter and i went to knott’s berry farm on last Wednesday and Disneyland on Thursday. I went on most of the rides there, got lost once again on the way back from Disneyland and had absolutely no problems! Left Buena Park on Friday to head for my cousins wedding in bakersfield, ca. Again, no problems driving through Los Angeles and i didn’t have any panic attacks there or since i got back late yesterday afternoon! I had a blast and am so happy i went! I even got completely trashed (yes, i said drunk) at the wedding and luckily it didn’t make my panic spike! I think the anticipation was the worst, but i felt obligated to my daughter to show her a good time and i’m sure i would have had the major panic attack whether i was here or not, especially since i had a cold return last week). i’m glad i did it, even though the takeoff and landing of planes scare the shit out of me, xanax or no xanax, the dr. wants me to start taking the xanax xr every other day (we’re back on the addiction bullshit), although they are still more than happy to put me on lexapro (which i guess they don’t realize that your body becomes dependent to that also)! I feel pretty confidant that i might have some success with it after the trip. Hell, I didn’t even freak out when my 4 hour flight turned into a 7-8 hour trip due to layovers from the crappy airport in San Francisco (no offense to any of ya that live there). I am so glad that you are still considering it, if you get to go anywhere, you’ll be very surprised at what it does for your confidence…

Response:

It’s fine – it’s my experience – and in the context of wanting to do something in the ‘obligatory’ sense – or a ‘have to’ – we should have learned that there are no must dos. It’s imperative to being healthy and in able to help in recovery. This is a vacation – so obligation seems the last thing to make into some sort of ‘coping method’ as it’s supposed to be enjoyed. I’d love to see a list of things that are "obligations" that are usually enjoyable. I think control (obligation fits into this category) is germane to the whole issue of the vacation….another long story of childhood pathology (on BF’s part) here, too complex to address now. that this might be a large factor in why this short vacation didn’t suit my guy. I was insisting on paying for my half of the trip……he’s a modern man, but has issues w/this and I think that they pertain to control. I just wish I had the cayuns to try a flight by myself, beholden to no one else. I don’t like power plays, unless they involve silk ties, my cat-o-nine-tails, and a camcorder, in the middle of the night. Nudge nudge wink wink say no more.

Response:

if one were to go to the airport, set up for a pretty short flight (but in a BIG plane – they’re far better and more comfortable) – would it seem too difficult to find someone in the waiting area and explain that you’re a bit afraid? You could explain that you used to fly – but it’s been years because of "Darwin’s Disease"

*Love* it! Hehe. P. (Mc) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Obviously the OP knows perfectly well that she doesn’t have an "obligation" to do anything. Not only from the abject content of her posts on this thread, but from reading her other posts, musings etc. One can tell that this is not a person who lacks insight and creativity, imagination and the ability to step outside the mental "box" (so to speak) even if for just a minute, if that’s all she decides it’s worth spending there. I was merely suggesting a *possible* coping strategy that she could use (if she wanted to, and she knows the difference) which is sometimes used by people with success. Evidently you do not experience anything you would call "success" when framing something in the "obligatory" category, and that’s obviously completely fine. That you can remove most, if not all obligations is even better. (How do you do it with the IRS, I’ll pay you well for that little secret…) Your point about options as they relate to anticipatory anxiety is well-taken, and is certainly well-known to me (and not just something I read in some book either…) however, I feel the need to say again that this was merely a possible mental re-frame idea for this particular person. Re. the whole discussion of "going along just because", I don’t think that is what’s going on here. Obviously I cannot know with certainty, but I will cite the things that cause me to think what I do, about this: "He and I have both talked about how much fun it would be to go to a sandy beach-barefoot-palm tree type of place…." "Costa Rica is one of our ideas." I sense *collaborative* here. Maybe I’m wrong. "neither of us is getting any younger." I’ve never heard anybody use that whole "not getting any younger" thing unless they were thinking about doing something. "We want to have fun while we’re youngish." Again, it’s plural.. "I don’t want to miss out on a potentially wonderful experience, but I don’t want to be returned to the US in a straitjacket." That reminds me of, "I don’t want to buy a fur coat because of all the stigma and spray-paint, but I love fur coats SO much…." Maybe not THE perfect analogy, but it’s good enough for ‘off the clock’. It’s approach/avoidance conflict, and yes, it’s a conflict with genesis in anxiety-disordered thought. I think the reason that I’m even re-visiting this at all is because her avoidance appears to have come straight from the ‘catastrophizing department’ of her mind. We all know how to get to that department, and many of us are fairly good at walking away from it also. The presented/perceived options are (a) go on a wonderful vacation and come home in a straight-jacket or (b) go nowhere/have "re-run" vacation in Toronto. At least that’s what I’m seeing here. I’m sure you would agree that there are other "options" besides those two scenarios. The OP cites fear of losing mind while flying - not to minimize her symptoms or their import in Sharon’s life, but that is really a rather common issue with phobic or panic material, as you surely know. It’s pharmacy solvable (likely), and she also catastrophized that. Rather than taking some meds to tolerate flying and not "lose my mind", she spoke of going to a beach paradise and "staying wasted half the time" (which personally …..well, that would just be so untoward, never mind). Is "staying wasted half the time" a bit catastrophic maybe? Is it also the ONLY option, if we bring pharmacy solutions in here? Rhetoric, I apologize…….(question withdrawn) I made the statements I made, which I still believe are a valid and reasonable approach, btw, because it is almost blatantly obvious that Sharon DOES want to have this experience, but is depressed, tired and just doesn’t have the energy right now to do the cognitive restructure on the issue which she (very likely) probably wants to do. I could be wrong – but if I’m not, and she decides to change her mind because of one piece of encouragement derived from ‘whomever’ – then it was worth the time to post the encouragement. This is my own view on it. My views are reflective of opportunities lost to anxiety over the years, and yours *have the appearance* of regret or anger (or some negative link) between trying (perhaps unsuccessfully at the time) to push past fear/anxiety and the resultant hellish trips – and I can totally relate to that. I wish I had done more of it, you wish you had done less – I suspect. Neither point of view is really better or worse, when it gets sorted out. Sharon is the one, in this case, who has to sort THIS one out. None of your points are lacking in validity at all, in fact they are very good concepts for people to think about, in their own right. I’m just not sure that staying in the comfort zone is ALWAYS the best thing to do. It might be for this trip; it might not be. Sharon gets 100% of those votes. Some "not so conducive to courageous living" symptoms are suggested – guilt, anhedonia, feeling depressed. I think it’s worth it (to Sharon) to revisit the idea when she’s feeling a little bit better. Revisit does not mean go, it just means revisit the idea. I personally hope she can, and does. Bottom line – I think maybe, and you think maybe not. Sharon will figure it out. G ps – please do not literalize the IRS thing, I fully know what you’re speaking of, to the extent possible on a screen. –g

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – communication, so pecked out: I think you maybe should approach it as an obligation I think maybe not. I believe that obligation means "must go" and I feel there are no MUST anythings. MUST also takes options out of the equation, to a great extent. I find (and feel) that having choices and options, when it comes to travel, are key points in alleviating anticipatory anxiety, which in turn, can make a trip fun or hell (at least the perception before the fact). From the start (first post) – the vacation shouldn’t be something being done for another person. People pleasing is all too easy a trap to fall into and it seems to spiral into a life style that supports an anxiety disorder (enables it, if you will). Personally, I gave up ‘obligations’ and just stayed away from anything that smacked of one for many many years (that means more than two I did the ‘obligation’ thing for a bit too long – and all it did was fester the sore. When I decided that I’d just sit back, NOT do what others expected, I’d be saving myself ulcers or just plain slow death. In the long run, it’s worked out that slowly working up to those things that seemed so horrid before, are now MY idea, or at least in my view, not something totally dreaded any longer. Not all obligations are dreaded – but I suspect that it’s a corner that many just don’t want to be in, but go along with ‘just because.’ That’s always seemed and proven counter productive to me. See what one little word can do??

Response:

( I agree, Gary….but the anticipatory anxiety I face regarding a vacation has made me realize that perhaps it just isn’t worth it. It is supposed to be a fun thing, and I’m not approaching it in that mindset at all……so what’s the point?

Sharon, i can go to Costa Rica in 2.3 seconds but i can’t walk out’ah the house to go to McDonalds…. what GIVES here? i think i did my own CBT or sumthin ta get me to that point or sumthin. i think the little things are in my realm of ‘acceptance" now. i KNOW why i can do the bigger things. i gave up the illusion of control. when ya get on that plane, yer done. yer no longer responsible. and then i realized the people that i gave my "control" to, (which is really power) gave me a break from me. these pilots had families, relatives, loved ones, and they had as much to be afraid of or "reasons for anxiety" as i did, and in reality, maybe more. their stress level was more existent in driving home from the airport, i found (cuz i used ta beg ta sit in tha jump-seat) when i spoke with them. it was a little bit of ‘ok, listen to them, tanya, this AIN’T THEIR FIRST DAY’… and i gotta tad sensible about it. i asked em so many questions that they probly wanted ta run into a side of a mountain, cuz i was way annoying, but they didn’t. they tolerated me, and if they could do that, they had sum kinda power i was forced to trust and i love to do stuff so i made it an acceptable thing to go anywhere. the worst part was knowing once i got to my destination and wanted ta party like it was 1999 that i had ta go back home so i had to try another method of acceptence, and that became "knowing i could always stay where i got to"… i didn’t HAVE to go back home, but in reality, i would. third world countries were not exactly where i wanted ta stay, nor were cruise ships or places where people bad bad tattoos. i knew i couldn’t stay at my friend’s houses (or i’d surely be killed with a butcher knife and i couldn’t afford ta LIVE in NY anymore) and the pilots went home, they took everyone else home, so there ya go. PLUS…. costa rica is a great place ta be nekkid. ALLAH TIME ! i simply gave up that control and talked to myself about the worst that could happen. which is? i die. wellllllllll, in tha air, there’s no fender benders, i knew i’d just die and never know it. that became a comfort. i’m gonna die anyway, so what’s tha dif? i truly have faith that all fear is based on ‘death’ and the only true fear IS death. as icky as it is, WHO cares when ya get there, it’s not’ah foot race. i’d rather get ta that ultimate destination via costa rica than McDonalds. how boutchu? no, i still can’t do the little things, i can’t bring myself to reckon with them, but that’s next. I know that my Klonopin would help….and that I don’t take nearly the prescribed dose, so I could literally knock myself out for flights with the storehouse I have of it……what good is that? Go to a beach paradise and stay wasted half of the time?

HOLY SHIT ! YA AIN’T S’POSED TA BE WASTED HALF THA TIME?????? now ya tell me. i should’ah fired that cabana boy on tha SPOT ! HEDONISM III MUCH BE DESTROYED ! I know that this is dreadfully negative but my depression is rearing

ya have choices, Sharon… and feelings are a choice, and i truly hope you find a way to know you are NEVER in control and you DO have power over the illusion of control, you DO have power… and also, you have power over the feelings of a need for control. I thank you all for your input and I’m sorry that I’m not worthy of it at this point.

can i have yer ticket? This is not snivelling shit…

then stop yer fuckin’ snivellin’ and get on that plane, it could save you from a certain death at tha drive-thru at Micky D’s ! it’s just the truth.

there’s no truth, either, there’s only perception. now GET ON THAT PLANE ! don’t make me come ovah theah. (whyyyyyyyyyyy, i oughta…….) or send me that ticket and i’ll send ya pics from costa rica ! (butcha gotta see me nekkid) and remember…. yo DO have that seat cushion as’ah floatation device and seriously, what is your fear? do ya know? ~tanya

Response:

You know your life best, obviously. Which is why only you can take that close look….you know, that really CLOSE look that most of us REALLY don’t like doing….. I think you maybe should approach it as an obligation, a part of the year, rather than a vacation per se. A total re-frame. Not easy to do. But then slowly and surely, things change, and one day, it becomes easy enough. You are certainly worth the effort, and it is folly to think we can prevent ALL difficulties. Hang in there.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some things, let’s face it, are just plain best solved pharmaceutically. I think the "dread" of a Costa Rican free vacation is definitely (definitely) a strong contender. I agree, Gary….but the anticipatory anxiety I face regarding a vacation has made me realize that perhaps it just isn’t worth it. It is supposed to be a fun thing, and I’m not approaching it in that mindset at all……so what’s the point? I know that my Klonopin would help….and that I don’t take nearly the prescribed dose, so I could literally knock myself out for flights with the storehouse I have of it……what good is that? Go to a beach paradise and stay wasted half of the time? I know that this is dreadfully negative but my depression is rearing thank you all for your input and I’m sorry that I’m not worthy of it at this point. This is not snivelling shit….it’s just the truth. -Sharon G hi Gary, If meds help I agree this a time to use them or up the dosage. Whilst clonazepam helps me generally keep anxiety at bay it doesn’t do anything for me when I’m facing major anxiety. In the end I need to rely on my self to get through tough situations, even simple things like getting to work. But if a temp increase in meds work go for it I would have to use a busload of the Klonopin, Vanessa…….might as that some things are just beyond me at this point, out of my reach. -Sharon Vanessa

Response:

Hi Sharon, if this is not the best time for you then that’s fine. My therapist taught me not to avoid but he also said there was no point in exposing yourself to a situation if your anxiety levels are way too high. Retreating is ok as there will be other times you can try when you’re more able to. You are certainly worthy Take care of yourself Vanessa

Response:

Some things, let’s face it, are just plain best solved pharmaceutically. I think the "dread" of a Costa Rican free vacation is definitely (definitely) a strong contender. G

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey cowpokes, I haven’t travelled much because of anxiety for more than 20 years now. I’ve only been to see friends or go camping a maxiumum of 5 hours away from home, and that was with difficulty. The situation is this: my boyfriend has a vacation coming up, and the poor guy works his ass off. He and I have both talked about how much fun it would be to go to a sandy beach-barefoot-palm tree type of place….Costa Rica is one of our ideas. He deserves to do what he wants to do on his vacation, and there is the fact that he’s footing the bill….and neither of us is getting any younger. We want to have fun while we’re youngish. He deals with my anxiety disorder quite well, and accepts my travel limitations. So he is very willing to go to Toronto, where a couple of dear friends of mine live, and make a vacation out of that. We would have fun, no doubt. But this is something we’ve already done together. I talked with my shrink the other day, and mentioned this. He asked what my big fear was when it came to travel. I told him that it was of losing my mind, losing control of myself, in an airplane or in a place far from home. Then he asked that dreaded question, the "what would happen if you lost your mind or control" question. Well, in a couple of different situations, I feel that I nearly lost my mind, but there were extenuating circumstances. (alcoholism, drug withdrawal) And I’ve seen people have nervous breakdowns, so I know that it CAN happen….that scares the hell out of me. But could I lose it???…I have a neurosis, not a psychosis, but there’s still that fear….and….what do flight attendants do with people if they freak on a flight, does anyone know? Should I ask my shrink for a powerful med to take if I "lost it" on a flight??? I’m all over the place, rambling here……sorry, it just shows my confusion….I don’t want to miss out on a potentially wonderful experience, but I don’t want to be returned to the US in a straitjacket. But I can also envision myself with him on a beach, topless, laughing, half-mad with happiness and dumping sand in his shorts. A friend mentioned that I might want to start working on positive visualization now….but that technique never worked with me. I think I’m short on imagination. wondering whether to post this and my screensaver popped up. Damn I’m dumb. Hi Sharon, I used to be just like you with holidays. I’d avoid them if I could because I the thought of being far from home filled me with anxiety. The fight/flight response in you is what is keeping you so close to home but it’s also limiting you from so much fun in life. I’m not saying it will be easy but it sure is possible to go on a holiday if you really want to go and actually have a fun time. I’ll admit I’ve had some panic attacks whilst on holidays … I HAD a real beauty in Greece but a Panic attack at home or away is still a panic attack and I managed to get through it. When I think back to that holiday now I remember all the great times. So if you truly want to go on holiday you can. The anticipation is the worst part but you can counter all the negatives with a plan of attack on how to deal with certain situations. If flying is an issue there are lots of tips we can offer you as many of us have dealt with this. You might like to try a short plane trip for starters. I’ve got lots of other tips on keeping yourself distracted and I too am not good at positive visualisation so don’t use that as an excuse Take care, Vanessa

Response:

Hey there, Thanks so much for putting the thought and time into replying. It has given me lots of food for thought, and encouragement. And I know that what each of you has said is the truth….and comes from great experience. Today was not a good day, so it’s hard for me to reply….but I wanted XOX Sharon

Response:

…..AND what’ah nice ass ah’tis ! He and I have both talked about how much fun it would be to go to a sandy beach-barefoot-palm tree type of place….Costa Rica is one of our ideas.

, the "what would happen if you lost your mind or control" question. Well, in a couple of different situations, I feel that I nearly lost my mind, but there were extenuating circumstances. (alcoholism, drug withdrawal)

"Monty Python and the Holy Grail" may be the silliest film ever put on celluloid. It rarely makes sense, sometimes falls a bit flat, but always puts a smile on your face. And that’s an achievement. And I’ve seen people have nervous breakdowns, so I know that it CAN happen….that scares the hell out of me.

no, once ya sell somethin’, stop sellin’ it. and once ya lost it? ya can’t lose it no more. .I have a neurosis,

nawwwwww……. fa REAL? not a psychosis, but there’s still that fear….and….what do flight attendants do with people if they freak on a flight, does anyone know?

yeah, *i* know. Should I ask my shrink for a powerful med to take if I "lost it" on a flight???

if ya wanna die happy, yeah. I’m all over the place, rambling here……sorry, it just shows my confusion….I don’t want to miss out on a potentially wonderful experience, but I don’t want to be returned to the US in a straitjacket. But I can also envision myself with him on a beach, topless, laughing, half-mad with happiness and dumping sand in his shorts.

oh VOMIT ! now sand in YER shorts? thassah nuthah story. A friend mentioned that I might want to start working on positive visualization now….but that technique never worked with me. I think I’m short on imagination.

NO YER NOT ! wondering whether to post this and my screensaver popped up.

and ya went with THIS? Damn I’m dumb.

golly gee whiz ! thanks for hippin’ us ta THAT, dude ! ok… i’m pee wee herman now. ~hmmph. ~t

Response:

Some things, let’s face it, are just plain best solved pharmaceutically. I think the "dread" of a Costa Rican free vacation is definitely (definitely) a strong contender.

I agree, Gary….but the anticipatory anxiety I face regarding a vacation has made me realize that perhaps it just isn’t worth it. It is supposed to be a fun thing, and I’m not approaching it in that mindset at all……so what’s the point? I know that my Klonopin would help….and that I don’t take nearly the prescribed dose, so I could literally knock myself out for flights with the storehouse I have of it……what good is that? Go to a beach paradise and stay wasted half of the time? I know that this is dreadfully negative but my depression is rearing thank you all for your input and I’m sorry that I’m not worthy of it at this point. This is not snivelling shit….it’s just the truth. -Sharon G hi Gary, If meds help I agree this a time to use them or up the dosage. Whilst clonazepam helps me generally keep anxiety at bay it doesn’t do anything for me when I’m facing major anxiety. In the end I need to rely on my self to get through tough situations, even simple things like getting to work. But if a temp increase in meds work go for it

I would have to use a busload of the Klonopin, Vanessa…….might as that some things are just beyond me at this point, out of my reach. -Sharon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Vanessa

Response:

Some things, let’s face it, are just plain best solved pharmaceutically. I think the "dread" of a Costa Rican free vacation is definitely (definitely) a strong contender. G

hi Gary, If meds help I agree this a time to use them or up the dosage. Whilst clonazepam helps me generally keep anxiety at bay it doesn’t do anything for me when I’m facing major anxiety. In the end I need to rely on my self to get through tough situations, even simple things like getting to work. But if a temp increase in meds work go for it Vanessa

Response:

oh Sharon……. i was SO just joshin’ with ya…… i meant nothing serious. i promise. please watch American Idol lin 58 minutes, k? we can dance ! ~t..

Response:

Hi Sharon, I used to be just like you with holidays. I’d avoid them if I could because I the thought of being far from home filled me with anxiety. The fight/flight response in you is what is keeping you so close to home but it’s also limiting you from so much fun in life. I’m not saying it will be easy but it sure is possible to go on a holiday if you really want to go and actually have a fun time. I’ll admit I’ve had some panic attacks whilst on holidays … I HAD a real beauty in Greece but a Panic attack at home or away is still a panic attack and I managed to get through it. When I think back to that holiday now I remember all the great times. So if you truly want to go on holiday you can. The anticipation is the worst part but you can counter all the negatives with a plan of attack on how to deal with certain situations. If flying is an issue there are lots of tips we can offer you as many of us have dealt with this. You might like to try a short plane trip for starters. I’ve got lots of other tips on keeping yourself distracted and I too am not good at positive visualisation so don’t use that as an excuse Take care, Vanessa

Response:

Then he asked that dreaded question, the "what would happen if you lost your mind or control" question. Why is that question "dreaded" by you? I see it as (remember, this is just what GARY sees….) your doctor’s attempt to challenge neurotic (self-defeating) beliefs by getting you to challenge them yourself. That is what you pay him for. Sometimes people do hold their neurotic beliefs (I have my own, and know this) very tightly, and it’s very hard to let go of them. It was "very hard" to do any number of other things in your life, I’m sure, but you did. I think you might benefit from concentrating on your successes rather than what you perceive as "failures" or "limitations". "Costa Rica is one of our ideas" I think it’s an excellent one. It is stated as "our" idea. You also say that "we" want to have fun. Yes, you could probably have fun in Toronto, but as you suggested, you feel like that’s a little bit ‘played’, and want something different. "5 hours away from home" I can only speak from my own experience on this, but 5 hours away from home is just as hard to walk back home from as 20 hours is – basically. The point being, you are away from home. You have already shown yourself that you can do that. You know that you can do that. I didn’t feel any different in Savannah (an hour and a half away) than I did in Niagara Falls – either way, my own bed was not there. What I chose to focus on was what WAS there. In your case, a fun person, a relaxing place, probably better weather. I think a minor shift in focus would be very helpful. "What is going to be great about this?" is the question to ask. Likely many things will, and those are the things to focus on. So you take a couple extra pills – so what? "Well, in a couple of different situations, I feel that I nearly lost my mind, but there were extenuating circumstances. (alcoholism, drug withdrawal)" Frankly, I don’t see those as "extenuating" circumstances – they were the predominant circumstances. Having just done a minor version of drug withdrawal, I feel some right to speak on this – not utter authority, but some right. Actually, it wasn’t that minor, just stopping a pain pill after a couple months, it was horrible – it was predominant, absolutely. So much so, that I will NEVER do that again, so help me god. If you really get unbelievably anxious, there is always a 2.5 mg Zyprexa option. It’s an amazing thing. Obviously I don’t know what you take, if you can take that at all, etc. etc. but I’m sure your doctor does. Chances are you will come home from Costa Rica with the same amount of your "emergency drug to prevent total loss of your mind" as you left with. Remind yourself that people go to places like that usually to prevent themselves from losing their minds. I want to say "wow, I wish that was MY anxiety issue – "gee, should I GO to Costa Rica, all-expenses-paid?", but that would appear as though I’m minimalizing your problem. Pain/anxiety etc. are singular and I do realize this. All in all though, from what you’ve said in this post, it sounds VERY do-able for you. Recreation = RE – CREATION consider that for a bit. As to "deserves" – my take on that – your boyfriend deserves to seek the kind of relationship he wants to be in – it’s actually a constitutional right (pursuit of happiness). Incidentally, you also have this right. Why don’t you pursue the phone number of the Costa Rica Vacation Company and this little "situation" will suddenly be a "great big fabulous event that happened this year". I hope that helped somewhere. I know Sharon, that you already know a lot of what I said here, but sometimes just hearing someone else say it – throws it into a different place. Gary

Response:

As others have already said, Sharon…. the actual event will be much less traumatic than the anticipatory anxiety beforehand. You have something very positive and fun to look forward to. If you need some Xanax or other med to help calm your nerves, then do so… It can’t hurt! I hope you will be able to try this. I’m sure flight attendants could be helpful to you. If I’m particularly anxious upon boarding the plane, I mention it to the flight attendants… and ask them to please check on me during the flight. I have always found them most receptive to this…. and very helpful. You don’t mention if you have ever flown…. or if you will have to change flights. Take care…. MikeH

Response:

Then he asked that dreaded question, the "what would happen if you lost your mind or control" question.

Please none of your sexual shit here.

Response:

Hey cowpokes, I haven’t travelled much because of anxiety for more than 20 years now. I’ve only been to see friends or go camping a maxiumum of 5 hours away from home, and that was with difficulty. The situation is this: my boyfriend has a vacation coming up, and the poor guy works his ass off. He and I have both talked about how much fun it would be to go to a sandy beach-barefoot-palm tree type of place….Costa Rica is one of our ideas. He deserves to do what he wants to do on his vacation, and there is the fact that he’s footing the bill….and neither of us is getting any younger. We want to have fun while we’re youngish. He deals with my anxiety disorder quite well, and accepts my travel limitations. So he is very willing to go to Toronto, where a couple of dear friends of mine live, and make a vacation out of that. We would have fun, no doubt. But this is something we’ve already done together. I talked with my shrink the other day, and mentioned this. He asked what my big fear was when it came to travel. I told him that it was of losing my mind, losing control of myself, in an airplane or in a place far from home. Then he asked that dreaded question, the "what would happen if you lost your mind or control" question. Well, in a couple of different situations, I feel that I nearly lost my mind, but there were extenuating circumstances. (alcoholism, drug withdrawal) And I’ve seen people have nervous breakdowns, so I know that it CAN happen….that scares the hell out of me. But could I lose it???…I have a neurosis, not a psychosis, but there’s still that fear….and….what do flight attendants do with people if they freak on a flight, does anyone know? Should I ask my shrink for a powerful med to take if I "lost it" on a flight??? I’m all over the place, rambling here……sorry, it just shows my confusion….I don’t want to miss out on a potentially wonderful experience, but I don’t want to be returned to the US in a straitjacket. But I can also envision myself with him on a beach, topless, laughing, half-mad with happiness and dumping sand in his shorts. A friend mentioned that I might want to start working on positive visualization now….but that technique never worked with me. I think I’m short on imagination. wondering whether to post this and my screensaver popped up. Damn I’m dumb.

Response:

You sound like you really want to go, so why not talk to pdoc about getting one of the benzos to help you out through this? It sounds like a great opportunity, i’d hate to see you miss it because of the damned anxiety. If it makes you feel any better, i am taking a vacation next week to california (live in idaho) and it will be just me and my daughter through the week. I’m dreading the plane ride (and unfortunately, i have heard, although i am not positive, that if someone freaks out, they usually set the plane down and you may get kicked off, but i honestly have no idea, for sure, i know they do that for someone that gets rowdy or a drunk, anyways…), and the traffic through san diego and LA area. For me, i think the benefits outweight the negatives, if i have a panic attack, i’ll deal with it. If i’m going to have them, i’m going to have them no matter where i’m at and it sure beats the hell out of sitting at home and having them! I also have my safety net of xanax which i think will help a little… Just think if you go and accomplish it, what it will do for your mental well being and self esteem!!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey cowpokes, I haven’t travelled much because of anxiety for more than 20 years now. I’ve only been to see friends or go camping a maxiumum of 5 hours away from home, and that was with difficulty. The situation is this: my boyfriend has a vacation coming up, and the poor guy works his ass off. He and I have both talked about how much fun it would be to go to a sandy beach-barefoot-palm tree type of place….Costa Rica is one of our ideas. He deserves to do what he wants to do on his vacation, and there is the fact that he’s footing the bill….and neither of us is getting any younger. We want to have fun while we’re youngish. He deals with my anxiety disorder quite well, and accepts my travel limitations. So he is very willing to go to Toronto, where a couple of dear friends of mine live, and make a vacation out of that. We would have fun, no doubt. But this is something we’ve already done together. I talked with my shrink the other day, and mentioned this. He asked what my big fear was when it came to travel. I told him that it was of losing my mind, losing control of myself, in an airplane or in a place far from home. Then he asked that dreaded question, the "what would happen if you lost your mind or control" question. Well, in a couple of different situations, I feel that I nearly lost my mind, but there were extenuating circumstances. (alcoholism, drug withdrawal) And I’ve seen people have nervous breakdowns, so I know that it CAN happen….that scares the hell out of me. But could I lose it???…I have a neurosis, not a psychosis, but there’s still that fear….and….what do flight attendants do with people if they freak on a flight, does anyone know? Should I ask my shrink for a powerful med to take if I "lost it" on a flight??? I’m all over the place, rambling here……sorry, it just shows my confusion….I don’t want to miss out on a potentially wonderful experience, but I don’t want to be returned to the US in a straitjacket. But I can also envision myself with him on a beach, topless, laughing, half-mad with happiness and dumping sand in his shorts. A friend mentioned that I might want to start working on positive visualization now….but that technique never worked with me. I think I’m short on imagination. wondering whether to post this and my screensaver popped up. Damn I’m dumb.

Response:

Fighting Migraine Disease bracelets

admin — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I just ordered me a Wrist band I got the 8" size one… I hope it fits lol. Umm any idea when I’ll be getting my wrist band? I’m thinkin it will take at least 2 weeks or so.

I got mine in about 10 days, but I’m in Canada so they had to come across the border and would have taken longer. Yours may not take that long. Dana

Response:

I just ordered me a Wrist band I got the 8" size one… I hope it fits lol. Umm any idea when I’ll be getting my wrist band? I’m thinkin it will take at least 2 weeks or so.

Response:

Ok thanks for the info I’m going to buy one!

Response:

How big/small is a 7" wrist band? I want to buy a wristband!

Well, let me put it this way. I have *tiny* wrists, and the child’s size is nice and loose on me. (Let me put on one of the adult ones.) ok, the adult one is really big on me. Now I just have to figure out which one is which. When I measure the adult one flat it’s more than 3.5 inches, which makes me think the child’s size is the 7 inch one. They stretch when you put them on like a great big rubber band, (what they are, basically) then snap back into the original shape and size. The child size is perfect on me, and I have very small hands and wrists. Dana

Response:

How big/small is a 7" wrist band? I want to buy a wristband!

Response:

Thanks, Dana! I had a super surprise in my email today. A lady in New York state ordered 144 wristbands. Whooohooo!!

Big fat yay! Dana

Response:

Thank YOU, Ronnie! hugs, Teri

| Thanks Teri will get MO out…. | | Ronnie |

Response:

Thanks Teri will get MO out…. Ronnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Ronnie. Sure thing! Fighting Migraine Disease: A New Awareness Initiative in Memoriam Today marks the launch of a new Web site and Migraine disease awareness wristbands. The purple wristbands are debossed with the slogan, "FIGHTING MIGRAINE DISEASE." The idea for this awareness initiative came from the Yahoo! discussion group Migraine after members read about a Migraineur who committed suicide after a horrendous ER visit. You may remember the article about that incident… Article about the wristband project: http://headaches.about.com/od/advocacyissues/a/fmd_wristband.htm Site to order awareness wristbands: www.fightingmigrainedisease.com hugs, Teri | Whats this??? I missed this Teri please repost info I would like to donate | and get | one.. | | Ronnie |

Response:

Hi, Ronnie. Sure thing! Fighting Migraine Disease: A New Awareness Initiative in Memoriam Today marks the launch of a new Web site and Migraine disease awareness wristbands. The purple wristbands are debossed with the slogan,

MJ Kelli Show

admin — Tue, 26 Apr 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

This guy is full of shit! BrianD Last week, and again this morning, MJ from the MJ morning show (Tampa Bay & Jacksonville area) talked about Pamela Anderson’s new TV show; Stacked. He voiced his disgust that someone with Hepatitis C should have their image projected in a sexual manner . He inferred that Hepatitis C is a sexually transmitted disease. He went on and on about this. As a member of an organization whose aim is to educate and advocate regarding hepatitis issues, I am appalled by the ignorance of these comments and saddened by the number of people who have heard this and will believe it just because it was uttered by someone in the media. It will take us, at our grass roots level, ten times as much work to dispel these myths because we don’t have the advertising capacity to reach the same number of people. Please email MJ Kelli and let him know that we do not appreciate the misinformation that he is spreading, and we will be happy to tell him the correct information. MJ’s radio show is heard in the following markets:Tampa Bay, Jacksonville, Mississippi, & Texas. I wonder how many people heard this and were offended? I wonder how many people heard this and felt shame? I wonder how many people heard this and let it keep them from getting support or medical treatment? Please email MJ Kelli and tell him how YOU feel. mjke…@aol.com http://www.jasonwoliner.com/morningshow/ ————————————————————————— —– Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HepatitisCLEARINGAndClear/

Response:

What, are you kidding? Doug… . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Brian"

wrote in message news:XHube.22928$NU4.2121@attbi_s22… This guy is full of shit! BrianD Last week, and again this morning, MJ from the MJ morning show (Tampa Bay & Jacksonville area) talked about Pamela Anderson’s new TV show; Stacked. He voiced his disgust that someone with Hepatitis C should have their image projected in a sexual manner . He inferred that Hepatitis C is a sexually transmitted disease. He went on and on about this. As a member of an organization whose aim is to educate and advocate regarding hepatitis issues, I am appalled by the ignorance of these comments and saddened by the number of people who have heard this and will believe it just because it was uttered by someone in the media. It will take us, at our grass roots level, ten times as much work to dispel these myths because we don’t have the advertising capacity to reach the same number of people. Please email MJ Kelli and let him know that we do not appreciate the misinformation that he is spreading, and we will be happy to tell him the correct information. MJ’s radio show is heard in the following markets:Tampa Bay, Jacksonville, Mississippi, & Texas. I wonder how many people heard this and were offended? I wonder how many people heard this and felt shame? I wonder how many people heard this and let it keep them from getting support or medical treatment? Please email MJ Kelli and tell him how YOU feel. mjke…@aol.com http://www.jasonwoliner.com/morningshow/ ————————————————————————— —– Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HepatitisCLEARINGAndClear/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Brian wrote:

This guy is full of shit! BrianD Last week, and again this morning, MJ from the MJ morning show (Tampa Bay & Jacksonville area) talked about Pamela Anderson’s new TV show; Stacked. He voiced his disgust that someone with Hepatitis C should have their image projected in a sexual manner . He inferred that Hepatitis C is a sexually transmitted disease. He went on and on about this. As a member of an organization whose aim is to educate and advocate regarding hepatitis issues, I am appalled by the ignorance of these comments and saddened by the number of people who have heard this and will believe it just because it was uttered by someone in the media. It will take us, at our grass roots level, ten times as much work to dispel these myths because we don’t have the advertising capacity to reach the same number of people. Please email MJ Kelli and let him know that we do not appreciate the misinformation that he is spreading, and we will be happy to tell him the correct information. MJ’s radio show is heard in the following markets:Tampa Bay, Jacksonville, Mississippi, & Texas. I wonder how many people heard this and were offended? I wonder how many people heard this and felt shame? I wonder how many people heard this and let it keep them from getting support or medical treatment? Please email MJ Kelli and tell him how YOU feel. mjke…@aol.com http://www.jasonwoliner.com/morningshow/

————————————————————————— —–

Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HepatitisCLEARINGAndClear/

Fuckin’ asswipe

Response:

Brian, wouldn’t it be funny if this Kelli (with an i) was one of the estimated 2.5 million people in this county who hasn’t been diagnosed yet? Sue

Response:

I blasted him with a left hook. Also told him to get tested, that he may be one of those 1 in 50 people that carry this disease. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone, but…… Sue

Response:

"burningdaylight"

wrote in message

news:6268102dce6ecdd794377826099534c2@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com…

Brian, wouldn’t it be funny if this Kelli (with an i) was one of the estimated 2.5 million people in this county who hasn’t been diagnosed yet? Sue

Funny? It would be the most beautiful example of "karma kickback" that I can imagine. Good one, Sue! Waterspider

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Brian"

wrote in message news:XHube.22928$NU4.2121@attbi_s22… This guy is full of shit! BrianD Last week, and again this morning, MJ from the MJ morning show (Tampa Bay & Jacksonville area) talked about Pamela Anderson’s new TV show; Stacked. He voiced his disgust that someone with Hepatitis C should have their image projected in a sexual manner . He inferred that Hepatitis C is a sexually transmitted disease. He went on and on about this. As a member of an organization whose aim is to educate and advocate regarding hepatitis issues, I am appalled by the ignorance of these comments and saddened by the number of people who have heard this and will believe it just because it was uttered by someone in the media. It will take us, at our grass roots level, ten times as much work to dispel these myths because we don’t have the advertising capacity to reach the same number of people. Please email MJ Kelli and let him know that we do not appreciate the misinformation that he is spreading, and we will be happy to tell him the correct information. MJ’s radio show is heard in the following markets:Tampa Bay, Jacksonville, Mississippi, & Texas. I wonder how many people heard this and were offended? I wonder how many people heard this and felt shame? I wonder how many people heard this and let it keep them from getting support or medical treatment? Please email MJ Kelli and tell him how YOU feel. mjke…@aol.com http://www.jasonwoliner.com/morningshow/

That’s bullsnort, my man. I just received an e-mail from him and the "misinformation" he was spreading was that Pam possibly got her HCV from dirty tattoo needles.

Response:

Brian, Here is Killi’s reply to my email. You have no idea what you are talking about. You didn’t even hear the comment. You picked this up on a message board and the writer didn’t hear the facts. We said Pam picked it up allegedly from dirty tattoo needles. You have been duped. Apologize to me now.

Response:

What parts to salvage/sell from a UPS?

admin — Fri, 04 Feb 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will take off power cords and other valuable stuff and take the rest to the dumpster. Power cords are quite awesome, 8 gauge flexible range plug with the cable that is like 6 foot long. Cut the plugs off both ends and solder on terminal lugs, and market them to hi-fi nuts as the latest miracle speaker cable for $100 apiece. Be sure to talk about how they provided an awesome soundstage and removed all veiling, and you’re selling them only because they’re too revealing of the other flaws in your rig. Hahaha. You forgot that I should mention "improved believability of sound". Seriously speaking, I should salvage plenty of 6 gauge wires with terminals, and various electrical thingys. I will keep a lot of that stuff. i You can ebay them: you just need to be creative. Now keep in mind its winter…. Ebay: For sale: UPS ( Universal Propulsion for Snow) Put this UPS in the truck of your RWD car or truck and watch your vehicle cut through those drifts! The UPS has a patented system to shift the electronic weight over the rear wheels thus increasing traction! You will be able to head out into weather you never thought possible without the UPS! Get yours now before you get stuck! Buy it now for $99.95! Caution: no normal shipping. will ship on pallet by truck only for actual cost.

Delivery may be delayed due to weather conditions… particularly if the roads are snow covered.

Response:

Put this UPS in the truck of your RWD car or truck and watch your vehicle cut through those drifts! The UPS has a patented system to shift the electronic weight over the rear wheels thus increasing traction! You will be able to head out into weather you never thought possible without the UPS! Get yours now before you get stuck!

When I was a teenager our neighbor put a tombstone that the engraver had screwed up in the trunk of his full size Pontiac in winter for traction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have three UPSes: 1. Clary OnGuard 3 phase 5 kVa UPS, no batteries 2. Clary OnGuard 1 phase 5 kVa UPS, no batteries 3. Ferrups 3.0 kVa inline model UPS (no outlets), no batteries All are working. I would like to demolish these UPSes, take out what I can sell and auction these parts on ebay. I recently demolished an even bigger Data General UPS (about 8 kW) and sold the capacitors from it for $75. The rest is a big pile of unidentifiable parts. Some look like huge diodes and transistors. I am afraid that some of those parts have value that I would have hard times capturing (maybe I took apart a large and usable rectifier, for example), so, I do not want to make the same mistake again. I would like to know which parts of those UPSes are really desirable. Capacitors? Rectifiers? Anything else?

There ought to be some big power transistors or SCRs. The SCRs, and maybe even the transistors, might look like "hockey pucks" between two large heatsinks, with bolts and springs compressing them between the sinks. Big transistors may also look like plastic blocks bolted to the heatsinks. You might just list these on eBay as separate items. The only people interested in these might be people fooling with electric vehicles. And, you NEVER know what an item on eBay will bring. Some stuff I just couldn’t quite bear to throw away, so I listed them on eBay, brought amazing bids. I sold a 1938 or so Bijur 35 mm movie camera that had been modified into a flight data recording camera by McDonnel-Douglas, maybe in the 40’s or 50’s, for $264! I STILL can’t get over that one! You just NEVER can predict who is willing to pay how much for something. Jon

Response:

There ought to be some big power transistors or SCRs… And, you NEVER know what an item on eBay will bring…

I’ve got an old capacitor that leaked oil and shrunk, kind of like those shrunken apple dolls. Now it looks like Tom Poston on acid. Lumpy — In Your Ears for 40 Years http://www.lumpymusic.com

Response:

I sold something called a 3M Secretary transparency maker for $270. It seems that they are used in tattoo parlors. I couldn’t even figure out what it was supposed to do…make overhead transparencies, I guess. jak – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jon great!!! i

Response:

Now it looks like Tom Poston on acid.

God! What a mental image. Now I have to go get my brain dry-cleaned again.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have three UPSes: 1. Clary OnGuard 3 phase 5 kVa UPS, no batteries 2. Clary OnGuard 1 phase 5 kVa UPS, no batteries 3. Ferrups 3.0 kVa inline model UPS (no outlets), no batteries All are working. I would like to demolish these UPSes, take out what I can sell and auction these parts on ebay. I recently demolished an even bigger Data General UPS (about 8 kW) and sold the capacitors from it for $75. The rest is a big pile of unidentifiable parts. Some look like huge diodes and transistors. I am afraid that some of those parts have value that I would have hard times capturing (maybe I took apart a large and usable rectifier, for example), so, I do not want to make the same mistake again. I would like to know which parts of those UPSes are really desirable. Capacitors? Rectifiers? Anything else? Any thoughts on this will be appreciated. I will use this as an opportunity to learn about electronics. Thanks!

Chances are the whole units are worth more than the sum of their parts. They make good power inverters.

Response:

why not sell the 3 phase one as an alternative to a rotary or static inverter – no batteries needed.

Response:

Think first. These with no batteries likely have various input voltage taps. They likely provide various output voltages. Can they be used to provide the correct voltage to a high voltage motor that is cheap ? Convert farm like 2 phase into 3 phase on the output ? Understand what is possible before scrapping. The transformers might be most useful in the prior concepts. The inverter might be to custom. Martin — Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Response:

Chances are the whole units are worth more than the sum of their parts. They make good power inverters.

Removing the batteries and calling them inverters might work quite well. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

Removing the batteries and calling them inverters might work quite well.

Only if the units he has are able to do a "cold start". Some older UPS units don’t have this option. I don’t recall if his models will. Rita — http://www.geocities.com/ritaberk2003/

Response:

I will take off power cords and other valuable stuff and take the rest to the dumpster. Power cords are quite awesome, 8 gauge flexible range plug with the cable that is like 6 foot long.

Cut the plugs off both ends and solder on terminal lugs, and market them to hi-fi nuts as the latest miracle speaker cable for $100 apiece. Be sure to talk about how they provided an awesome soundstage and removed all veiling, and you’re selling them only because they’re too revealing of the other flaws in your rig.

Response:

Removing the batteries and calling them inverters might work quite well. Only if the units he has are able to do a "cold start". Some older UPS units don’t have this option. I don’t recall if his models will. Rita

The key question is whether the unit is or can be reworked for twelve volt input. Sometimes simply renaming things works quite well. Pen plotter motors would not sell at any price but laser lightshow galvos flew on out of here. To convert a pen plotter motor to a laser lightshow galvo, you remove anything extra that is bent or broke. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

By far the best speaker cable you can buy is four point barbed wire. See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/marcia.pdf for a detailed analysis. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

You can ebay them: you just need to be creative. Now keep in mind its winter…. Ebay: For sale: UPS ( Universal Propulsion for Snow) Put this UPS in the truck of your RWD car or truck and watch your vehicle cut through those drifts! The UPS has a patented system to shift the electronic weight over the rear wheels thus increasing traction! You will be able to head out into weather you never thought possible without the UPS! Get yours now before you get stuck! Buy it now for $99.95! Caution: no normal shipping. will ship on pallet by truck only for actual cost. Bob —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

I made about $2,500 to $2,800 on APC 1,400 VA units, 2 years ago. Bought 2 skids with 28 of them, all with shot batteries, replaced batteries with help of a friend, and sold the UPSes on ebay.

That’s not bad. The 1400s fall well bellow our acceptable price per pound ratio and we don’t screw with them. In today’s market the 1400s are worthless. Even the Matrix 5000 is in the dirt. The Symmetras do extremely well off eBay. I discussed this on rec.crafts.metalworking, and concluded that i do not want to make welders. I could sell the rectifiers, if you think that they are worth something.

I would try writing a creative description and a title that has creative uses for them and list them on eBay with a $50 starting bid. I find listing an item’s alternative use instead of name and model number work great for items that don’t sell. Rita — http://212.68.147.44/Zehava-ben/

Response:

I had dozens of them new on the skid and couldn’t give them away. Yes, they were very expensive when new. This is due to the uneducated people in the government’s purchasing department. Never handle any UPS unless it’s an APC unit of 2200VA and above. And you should never handle any three phase units made by anyone else but APC or Liebert. Wow look at Rita showing off her considerable knowledge of three phase UPS units!

Like I said, sometimes I wonder just how feminine she actually is. She also hates gay men with a passion I’ve only ever seen in men. A

Response:

Like I said, sometimes I wonder just how feminine she actually is. She also hates gay men with a passion I’ve only ever seen in men.

LOL! Maybe you’re questioning your gender? Maybe I should be selling Beanie Babies instead of what I sell to be feminine? And no, I don’t "hate gay men with a passion". I don’t know what gave you that idea? You need to get your head out of your ass and see what women are doing in the world today. Rita — http://212.68.147.44/Zehava-ben/

Response:

I have three UPSes: 1. Clary OnGuard 3 phase 5 kVa UPS, no batteries

*Shrug* I might have use for the parts in one. Just how big are they again?… Tim — "I’ve got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!" – Homer Simpson

Response:

You might see if the specs on the diodes would let them be used for an AC to DC arc welding converter. Paul

Response:

I have not seen much demand for older and heavier UPS gear. I charge another eBay seller $200 per month to haul it away. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

I have three UPSes: 1. Clary OnGuard 3 phase 5 kVa UPS, no batteries 2. Clary OnGuard 1 phase 5 kVa UPS, no batteries 3. Ferrups 3.0 kVa inline model UPS (no outlets), no batteries All are working.

That generally won’t make any difference with these dogs. You probably have late 80s early 90s vintage units. Plus, these are low-end units that have no customer appeal. I would like to demolish these UPSes, take out what I can sell and auction these parts on ebay. I recently demolished an even bigger Data General UPS (about 8 kW) and sold the capacitors from it for $75. The rest is a big pile of unidentifiable parts. Some look like huge diodes and transistors. I am afraid that some of those parts have value that I would have hard times capturing (maybe I took apart a large and usable rectifier, for example), so, I do not want to make the same mistake again.

The capacitors are probably appealing to the ghetto-blaster-car-audio-crowd. Other than a few relays and some MOVs there really isn’t anything worth popping the hood for. I would like to know which parts of those UPSes are really desirable. Capacitors? Rectifiers? Anything else?

Some have Anderson connectors that you can get about $1.50 each. Any thoughts on this will be appreciated. I will use this as an opportunity to learn about electronics.

Strip them for the fun of it, but don’t expect to find any gold nuggets in them. Good luck and have fun. Rita — http://212.68.147.44/Zehava-ben/

Response:

anybody can google xxxxxxxx and be an expert parrot in no time. fq

Response:

Wow look at Rita showing off her considerable knowledge of three phase UPS units! ef

Response:

Clarys are $10,000 high end units. Not that it matter, now that no one wants them.

I had dozens of them new on the skid and couldn’t give them away. Yes, they were very expensive when new. This is due to the uneducated people in the government’s purchasing department. Never handle any UPS unless it’s an APC unit of 2200VA and above. And you should never handle any three phase units made by anyone else but APC or Liebert. I will probably convert the cabinet from the Ferrups unit into a meat smoker (smokehouse).

Now that is a great idea. I wish I had thought of that. You might want to list one on eBay. Maybe, but those were high voltage kind.

Some of the older units used either a 12 or 24 VDC configuration and had these larger caps. The newer 48 VDC and above units don’t have anything worthwhile in them. I need to take them apart to take them to a dumpster anyway…

I forgot to ad that you do have some heavy-duty transformers in these things that you can use as a crude welder if you don’t already own one. Save the rectifiers for this purpose as well. What a hassle, I made $320 profit on this lot (on other pieces), but I hate every moment of owning it. Well, I got some useful parts out of those UPSes, but still I would not do the deal if I knew what Iknow.

It’s not even worth it with a forklift. Just be careful that you don’t drop a nut screwing with these things. What about the rectifiers.

See above. There is probably little eBay value in them unless you do some creative writing. Thanks. If I get $50 out of each, and some parts good for myself, I will be happy. Maybe I can get my retired FIL to do some disassembly in exchange for "profit sharing".

I really like your smoker idea! Have fun and good luck. Rita — http://212.68.147.44/Zehava-ben/

Response:

Sleeev

admin — Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Guess what I got fer my birthday? A 6 hour roadtrip and a weekend stay in the home town of my ink-slingin’ arteest to finish up my sleeve! (It’s about 90% done, but been waiting like 2 years to actually finish it off completely.) It’ll happen next month. He booked the whole day for me, so if we finish up the arm soon enough – I might have him start something new too. I want a *BIG* piece done on my belly. And I’m thinking real hard about having the sleeve extend down onto my hand…real hard. Anyone have a pic of a hand tattoo that they really like? Or a sleeve that incorporates it? — G

HOW TO GET A FREE BMEZINE MEMBERSHIP WITHOUT SENDING YOUR PICTURE!!!! FUK THEM IDIOTS AT BME!!!

admin — Mon, 24 Jan 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

ARE YOU TIRED OF THAT GAY LIMIT ON BME? YOU WANT TO SEE ALL THEM POSERS RETARDED TATTOO PICTURES BUT YOU DON’T WANT TO SEND YOUR GREAT PICTURES TO THE BUNCH OF NEGROID HOMOSEXUALS AT BME? YOU KNOW THAT PAYING FOR A MEMBERSHIP TO ACCESS A WEBSITE WHERE THEY MAKE MONEY WITH "YOUR" PICTURES IS VERY STUPID? WELL JUST DO LIKE ME (I DID THIS 4 TIMES AND THEY NEVER NOTICED HAHAHA IDIOTS AT BME).. STEP 1: GET A NEW FREE HOTMAIL ACCOUNT (OR OTHER DOESN’T MATTER) STEP 2: GO ON GOOLE AND SEARCH FOR TATTOO IMAGES STEP 3: JUST TAKE SOME RANDOM TATTOO PIC YOU FOUND ON GOOGLE STEP 4: SEND IT TO THOSE IDIOTS AT BME HAHAHHAHA THEY WON’T NOTICE STEP 5: WAIT FOR YOUR NEW FREE MEMBERSHIP STEP 6: LAUGH HARD AT THOSE IDIOTS AT BME HAHAHHAHA STEP 7: WASTE BMEZINE’S BANDWIDTH FOR FREE AHHAHA RETARDS AT BME THEY SUCK!!! EAT SH1T BMEZINE!!!! STEP 8: ALSO LAUGH HARD BECAUSE BODYART ON EFNET IS SO DEAD ROFLROFL LAMERS

Response:

ARE YOU TIRED OF THAT GAY LIMIT ON BME?

I’m sure shannon will be thrilled, but we should give a shit, why? BTW mary the cap lock key also unlocks it.

Response:

ARE YOU TIRED OF THAT GAY LIMIT ON

I’ve never been an outdoorsman, but this comment begs for a DRLG/homosexual joke. I just picture David aka DRLG aka Richard *Hunter* complaining that he has (or hasn’t) bagged his gay limit. Get it? Hunter, limit, gay limit? Never mind. For fuck’s sake, people. LAUGH GOD DAMN IT! — Curt http://curtjames.com/

Response:

mdc STEP 8: ALSO LAUGH HARD BECAUSE BODYART ON EFNET IS SO DEAD ROFLROFL mdc LAMERS yes, & it’s taken me many long years to get it that way! lish "well, i may be a lot of things 40.1% / 30 RANA 125 / 68

Response:

ARE YOU TIRED OF THAT GAY LIMIT ON BME? I’m sure shannon will be thrilled, but we should give a shit, why? BTW mary the cap lock key also unlocks it.

Why are you responding to a sock-puppet? Jess

Response:

An ode to Kaos softwear

admin — Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Dear squishies: How I love thee, let me count the ways… I rest peacefully on the side of my head, with no giant metal torquing my poor lobe 180 degrees. Even my husband’s snoring is more tolerable than the irritating pillow-position-seeking mission I’ve been on for the last year. I answer the phone with either ear, and can once again pin the handset between my ear and my shoulder. I’d forgotten I’d placed you in my ear, my lobes were so lightweight and carefree. I felt a chill breeze pass through thee this morning – but, for a change, my lobe was not about to freeze off my head due to ice cold metal or glass. Thank you, Kaos Softwear, for such comfort and joy in my ears. Even when I move on from thee for daily wear, I’ll surely sleep in your squishy goodness. Happily squishing at 0g, with much love and fond squeezes, fr0glet

Response:

[snip] Thank you, Kaos Sof[snip]

[snip] http://kaossoftwear.com/ Elsewhere in this ng, I asked about bling bling with 00 gauge posts. http://kaossoftwear.com/product_hiderplugs.htm Think I’ll give that product a go. — Curt http://curt_james.livejournal.com/ New here? http://rabbithole.org/

Response:

thusly: | Happily squishing at 0g, with much love and fond squeezes, | fr0glet Your ode caused me to buy some, since I wasn’t sure how squishy the 0g might be. I now await my translucent pink plugs with glitter. In other news, I’m turning into a girl. Cassie — Reply: cassie at iliadawry dawt org. "Rather than sending him to jail, they made him a Duke of Leeds." -Reg, a.f.n-g, 3.7.2003

Response:

thusly: | Happily squishing at 0g, with much love and fond squeezes, | fr0glet Your ode caused me to buy some,

Excellent. My plan is working. since I wasn’t sure how squishy the 0g might be.

Dig it: I was sick and didn’t bathe for 2 days, and I didn’t even grow ear funk on my new squishies. Wacky, isn’t it? I now await my translucent pink plugs with glitter. In other news, I’m turning into a girl.

fr0glet

Response:

Thank you, Kaos Softwear, for such comfort and joy in my ears. Even when I move on from thee for daily wear, I’ll surely sleep in your squishy goodness.

i’ve had my 0g black squishies in for about a month now, they’re great! Though, i am a weight whore, so, i’ve been dangling my 4g 3/4" cbbs through them for daytime wear. My only complaint is that they’re too long. Damn me and my skinny lobes. joy

Response:

Your ode caused me to buy some,

fg Excellent. My plan is working. a smarter plan would’ve been to contact kaos before the ode was written, & ask for kickbacks from purchases made due to the ode. but you’re not me. lish "ask me the questions 40.1% / 30 RANA 125 / 68

Response:

Elsewhere in this ng, I asked about bling bling with 00 gauge posts. http://kaossoftwear.com/product_hiderplugs.htm Think I’ll give that product a go.

Please. Really. Please explain how bling bling and hiderplugs exist in the same universe. Oh, that’s right. Curt gets to decide what words mean. He’s that special. Kavin

Response:

to choke out these words: Thank you, Kaos Softwear, for such comfort and joy in my ears. Even when I move on from thee for daily wear, I’ll surely sleep in your squishy goodness. i’ve had my 0g black squishies in for about a month now, they’re great! Though, i am a weight whore, so, i’ve been dangling my 4g 3/4" cbbs through them for daytime wear. My only complaint is that they’re too long. Damn me and my skinny lobes.

are you wearing the standard size or the original size? david — http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/derbarbier/ (ebay sales) http://shops.half.com/derbarbier ten tod labolgcbs ta reibrabred

Response:

to choke out these words: My only complaint is that they’re too long. Damn me and my skinny lobes. joy are you wearing the standard size or the original size? david

tried both, definately a difference, but still too long. egads, did i say that? joy

Response:

Bone. Kavin

I recently discovered I dissolve bone jewelry. First I discolor the bone with my mad chemistry, then it becomes soft and begins disappearing. Horn is fabulous for me, though. fr0glet

Response:

Kavin wrote… Oh, that’s right. Curt gets to decide what words mean. He’s that special.

He’s the human multibabel, after all: You put in something that sounds halfway reasonable, it gets processed in various twisted ways, and out comes something that contains a few words from your original message in lots of garbled nonsense where the original meaning has been redefined or lost altogether. http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/ Nina — C’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot. Louis Pasteur http://www.chaotropic.net

Response:

Your ode caused me to buy some, fg Excellent. My plan is working. a smarter plan would’ve been to contact kaos before the ode was written,

I sent the ode to them, first. & ask for kickbacks from purchases made due to the ode. At least I’m getting wholesale! but you’re not me.

I’m thankful. There certainly isn’t room in this newsgroup for two of you. fr0glet

Response:

Thank you, Kaos Softwear, for such comfort and joy in my ears. i’ve had my 0g black squishies in for about a month now, they’re great! Though, i am a weight whore, so, i’ve been dangling my 4g 3/4" cbbs through them for daytime wear.

You do know the implications of wearing heavy jewelry constantly, yes? fr0glet ps update your IAM page, wench! <3

Response:

a smarter plan would’ve been to contact kaos before the ode was

fg I sent the ode to them, first. fg & ask for kickbacks from purchases made due to the ode. fg At least I’m getting wholesale! atta girl. i knew you were teachable. but you’re not me.

fg I’m thankful. There certainly isn’t room in this newsgroup for two of fg you. this newsgroup? THE UNIVERSE. lish "i’m sorry for crushing 40.1% / 30 RANA 125 / 68

Response:

[snip] You put in something that sounds halfway reasonable

[snip] And often not even halfway reasonable. Yet, who am I to criticize someone’s posting habits? [snip] http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/ [snip] Fun! Speaking of fun, I went to see National Treasure last night. The characters performed a Yahoo! search in the back of a van at some point. I was disappointed that it wasn’t a Google search, of course. Still, the movie was hella fun. Action, adventure, romance, suspense, humor! Lost in Translation – the name listed on the Web site Nina offered – is also the name of a film starring Bill Murray and Scarlett Johansson. Plus it’s directed by Sofia Coppola. Hmmm. One IMDb visitor likens it to a public reaming of a divorced husband. I did not know that. Too bad the babel site doesn’t offer a reverse translation. Or do they? Regardless, it’s pretty obvious: Baltes sings to the dream can inhale the donkeys of the mine! Whatever. I don’t believe I’d let her lips anywhere near the donkeys of the mine. Carl Tashian’s Web site, upon closer inspection, is simply a toy. Tashian asks, "What happens when an English phrase is translated (by computer) back and forth between 5 different languages?" It doesn’t really answer the question that Tashian asks. At least from my perspective. (One that Nina obviously would disagree with.) It’s translated by computer, but it’s an English to (insert foreign language) only. It’s apparently programmed to begin translating as if it’s translating from English to another language each time and then back to English on the last sweep. That makes for a more humorous outcome but isn’t representative of what could actually be done with a computer translator. Key in "I love tattoos!" and see what happens. That’s some truly lightweight translating software. But, hey, a joke’s a joke. Cool. — Curt http://curt_james.livejournal.com/ New here? http://rabbithole.org/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kavin wrote… Oh, that’s right. Curt gets to decide what words mean. He’s that special. He’s the human multibabel, after all: You put in something that sounds halfway reasonable, it gets processed in various twisted ways, and out comes something that contains a few words from your original message in lots of garbled nonsense where the original meaning has been redefined or lost altogether. http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/ Nina

Sounds accurate to me. In fact I checked to make sure that multibabel agreed and it told me when I stated: "Curt is always completely correct and never fails to properly snip and attribute text to it’s original author." It told me apparently accurately that: "Without the recognition and l’effetto of d’un of the esquileos it is corrected always totally and the qualities to the text d’it’s of l autor d’original cannot cut correctly never no." BTW nina that thing is just way too much fun. — JSin "Connect the Goddamn Dots" -Ministry To reply kill the .idiot.

Response:

Elsewhere in this ng, I asked about bling bling with 00 gauge posts. http://kaossoftwear.com/product_hiderplugs.htm Think I’ll give that product a go. Please.

With sugar on top? Really.

I imagine you’ll be wanting a definition of the word really, too. You probably won’t get it, though. Will that be a problem for you? Please explain how bling bling and hiderplugs exist in the same universe.

Well, let’s just see. Hmmm. Start by venturing to the other end of the link I provided earlier and which you’ve so generously included in your reply. Can we do that? Let’s. Here: http://kaossoftwear.com/product_hiderplugs.htm (I can’t have you getting lost while scrolling up, can I?) Did you click the link yet? Are you there yet? No? Oh, come on. Please. Really. Whatever. YOU THERE YET? You can do it, Kavin! If you *are* then you’ll see a picture along the bottom. You might even find some text that reads /like this/… | Additionally, they can be pierced with a | "regular" style of jewelry making your | actual piercing much less noticeable. Whaddya fookin’ know, Kavin! Bling bling and hiderplugs existing in the same universe! So, you had the info available to you in the post you replied to, but still couldn’t figure it out? If that’s true, well, it’s no surprise. /Really/. You’re apparently much more interested in bellyaching than reading, posting a reply, or choosing to ignore. Here’s the image by itself in the event you were unable to decide which one I was referring to: http://kaossoftwear.com/webgraphics/hp_three.jpg Oh, yeah, there’s the small matter of substituting something like this… http://www.icedoutgear.com/EAR02.php for the earring appearing in the picture at Kaos’s Web page, but, yes, hiderplugs and bling bling can obviously and easily exist in the same universe. Do you get it? I’ll bet you still don’t get it. Oh, that’s right.

Oh, that *IS* right. No doubt. Curt gets to decide what words mean.

You’re sure about that? You wouldn’t prefer to double check before replying? Maybe? There’s always a first time, right? Uh huh. I guess you like reacting instead of thinking. Whatever works for you. He’s that special.

I like to think so. Thanks for agreeing. — Curt http://curt_james.livejournal.com/ New here? http://rabbithole.org/

Response:

Bone. [snip] I recently discovered I dissolve bone jewelry. First I discolor the bone with my mad chemistry, then it becomes soft and begins disappearing.

What steps are you taking to prevent osteoporosis? Horn is fabulous for me, though.

Beep! — Curt http://curt_james.livejournal.com/ New here? http://rabbithole.org/

Response:

re http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/ Sounds accurate to me.

It would. In fact I checked to make sure that multibabel agreed and it told me when I stated: "Curt is always completely correct and never fails to properly snip and attribute text to it’s original author." [snip]

I do snip. Everyone should. However, I snip appropriately. Likewise, I do attribute text to its author. Where have I not? There was an instance with lish, but that was so obviously her voice. Oh! Never mind. Excuse me. You were just looking for an opportunity to kiss RABbit tush. Allow me to avert my eyes. BTW nina that thing is just way too much fun.

It is a fun Web site. Key in your name and see what happens. — Curt http://curt_james.livejournal.com/ New here? http://rabbithole.org/ — Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Response:

thusly: | I now await my translucent pink plugs with glitter. | | In other news, I’m turning into a girl. | I found some wonderful soft pink yarn and am making a scarf to wear over my hair at work. It’s terrifying. Cassie — Reply: cassie at iliadawry dawt org. "Rather than sending him to jail, they made him a Duke of Leeds." -Reg, a.f.n-g, 3.7.2003

Response:

and sputtered, and managed to choke out these words: thusly: | I now await my translucent pink plugs with glitter. | | In other news, I’m turning into a girl. | I found some wonderful soft pink yarn and am making a scarf to wear over my hair at work. It’s terrifying.

your hair, the scarf, or work?

Response:

You do know the implications of wearing heavy jewelry constantly, yes? fr0glet ps update your IAM page, wench! <3

i most certainly am and, well, nothing terribly exciting happens in my life so…not many updates joy wenchy

Response:

| and sputtered, and managed to choke out these words: | It’s terrifying. | | your hair, the scarf, or work? The girliness. =p But work’s pretty fuckin’ scary. Cassie — Reply: cassie at iliadawry dawt org. "Rather than sending him to jail, they made him a Duke of Leeds." -Reg, a.f.n-g, 3.7.2003

Response:

The Good And Bad Things Christianity Brought To Our Pagan World

admin — Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

So I say that when the Romans came to Western Europe they kicked our asses for several reasons. The most vital reason was the belief of one god, one land, and one king. We were of several gods, several lands, and several chiefs. That made it easy for Rome to put our backs to Hadrian’s Wall. The Romans also brought us their much better laws, technology, and political system of equality. All new citizens of Rome were more equal, women had more rights, and even servants/slaves had more rights under the Roman system then they did in the Western European ones. So the Romans consolidated their failing political system under a similar religious one called the Roman Catholic Church. The concept was the same. Centralized power in Rome, the belief in one God, and a united land. Pagans understood this importance of unity and equality and created a system of Celtic Christianity. Many Irish pagan beliefs were woven into Christianity. But now that we Pagans have taken the most important aspects of Christianity as our own. Unity of One God (The Divine God/dess within all things), One Land, A United Kingdom, A United States, and a European Union, and one King, the United Nations and the President of each Nation, we must now cast aside the worst of Christianity. Christianity is based on the sacrifice of the innocent so that we are no longer responsible for our actions. I say no. We shall take responsibility for everything we do and we shall be come as gods.

Response:

The Romans were not xtians or even monotheists at that time. Ceasar origianlly went to outer gaul to fight the Hellveti who were crossing inner gaul ( which was a roman provence) to reach outer gaul ( which was not). Ceasar decided to kill them all. One reason that he did this was because the Hellveti had sacked Rome about 50 years previous to that. It was payback, it was expansion, and it was good military sense. They killed hundreds of thousands of Hellveti, but they didn’t get them all. He chased the remnents into outer gaul and established Roman encampments throughout it. He had Celtic allies in this, he had Celtic enemies in this. The Celts had been fighting each other for land for centuries. He made a foray into Britain at the end of this campaign. He didn’t stay long. Claudius is the emperor who conquered Britain. By that time France ( outer gaul) had been pacified. It would be several hundred years later, before Constintine accepted xtianity as the official Roman religion. By that time, the Romans had withdrawn from Britain……and left a pacified and Romanized country to the mercy of the Saxon invasions. The success of Xtianity is linked to nation building. All of the major religions are successful for that same reason. The Romans also brought us their much better laws, technology, and political system of equality. All new citizens of Rome were more equal, women had more rights, and even servants/slaves had more rights under the Roman system then they did in the Western European ones.

In regarding the Celts, the Romans had more law covering every aspect of life. BTW, the reason that the Romans outlawed the Druid class, was because they practiced human sacrifice, and that was one of the few religious practices that the Romans absolutely would not accept. Without exception. So the Romans consolidated their failing political system under a similar religious one called the Roman Catholic Church. The concept was the same. Centralized power in Rome, the belief in one God, and a united land.

When the empire split capitols, it was essentially dead. The east fell under the influence of Persian ideas, the West went another way. Pagans understood this importance of unity and equality and created a system of Celtic Christianity. Many Irish pagan beliefs were woven into Christianity.

This is a weighty subject, and I doubt if you want to hear me go on and on. But now that we Pagans have taken the most important aspects of Christianity as our own. Unity of One God (The Divine God/dess within all things), One Land, A United Kingdom, A United States, and a European Union, and one King, the United Nations and the President of each Nation, we must now cast aside the worst of Christianity.

Nation building? If you strip these ideas down to their absolute essentials, AND link them up to a military or political force that provides a nuts and bolts unifying force….you could come up with a global religion….however, you will always have an underlying, if not separate, matrix of culture and folk belife that will color all of the Religion’s expression. Back to your example of the Irish Church. All over the world, the underlying folk belife will either color ( wildly), or co exist side by side with the official religion….and you will never have a global religion, until you have a global culture. Global culture is MUCH tougher to achive. Most religions give the average person no guide for living in their world. Most cosmologies are REMOTE in their structure. People don’t want remote cosmologies. You will note the rise of fundamentalism all over the world because of that very fact. Many pagans are attracted to "paganism" because its cosmologies are immediate……they are immediate because these pagans are converts, and converts have fervor. If these principles of religion become remote, fervor is lost. Adherents of fundamentalist religons tend to worship often, group together in tight cells, churches if you wish, to refresh their fervor and commitment to a world view. In a dispariate world ( culturally and religiously) these fundamentalists tend to stick out more than at any other time. Christianity is based on the sacrifice of the innocent so that we are no longer responsible for our actions. I say no. We shall take responsibility for everything we do and we shall be come as gods.

Heh. Very Gnostic. Thanks for an interesting post, Ren. Pip

Response:

Pip typed, "The success of Xtianity is linked to nation building. All of the major religions are successful for that same reason." Interesting comments about why Romans outlawed Druidism. During the invasion of Western Europe Rome was a secular empire that allowed many religions but subjected those religions to their laws. Interesting that the U.S. and U.K. does the same thing. One of the reasons that the mystery religion of Mythras and Jesu were so popular with Roman soldiers is because of it’s secular characteristics and it’s democratic flavor. People were considered equal which Roman soldiers who were wealthy land owners, merchants, or an even lower class of men came together to fight also as equals.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pip typed, "The success of Xtianity is linked to nation building. All of the major religions are successful for that same reason." Interesting comments about why Romans outlawed Druidism. During the invasion of Western Europe Rome was a secular empire that allowed many religions but subjected those religions to their laws. Interesting that the U.S. and U.K. does the same thing. One of the reasons that the mystery religion of Mythras and Jesu were so popular with Roman soldiers is because of it’s secular characteristics and it’s democratic flavor. People were considered equal which Roman soldiers who were wealthy land owners, merchants, or an even lower class of men came together to fight also as equals.

Mithras was the god of choice of the legions. I think this is the main reason that the myth of Jesus birth, day of death, and manner of death, replicates that of the god Mithras. It pretty obvious that there was a major grafting to the Jesus myth. By the time that Marcus Aurelius ws emporor, the roman soldier was pretty much a slave. Only the very wealthiest in the legions could own estates. and soldiers called up to serve often LOST their land to officers because they couldn’t pay the taxes with their small wages. Roman soldiers were considered property of the state. They ALL had SPQR tattooed on them. During the conquest of Britain, Romans recorded that the troops examined the dead Celts with great curiosity because of their Celtic tattoos, simply because to the common Roman soldier, their own tattoos were a mark of slavery and they didn’t much like them. The common Roman soldier was landless. They lived with their wives and children in the field. Their families were part of the thousands of camp followers that went on campaign with them. They were paid by their generals and were loyal to them, not to the empire. That is how the emperors came to power thru the army alone. Xtianity has an interesting early history. While the empire was still pagan, an imperial govenor in greece, has a case argued in front of him by a female slave, simply because she was high in the christian movement and had the status among christians to do so. The govenor had to decide if he would hear this case simply because to have a slave arguing it was unheard of. Xtianity changed many things socially, before it became the absolute creature of the state, and lost any "light" that it may have had. It is interesting to speculate what it might have become, had things been different. Pip

Response:

Ten Laws

admin — Sun, 24 Oct 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Instead

You’re right. It’s no good to think of "curing" one’s life. I didn’t realise that I too found it morbid. I will try to remember this law. It really helps to learn realistic expectations. psssssssssst…. (yer managing yer life anyway… seein’ it in print is maybe just freakin ya out)

I don’t know whether I’m really managing my life. I’m panicking, going from crisis to crisis. I’m going to try to make the shift to "managing" it. and Jan? (boys are so easily trainab… ummm… i mean manageable… GO WITH IT, GURL !.. )

I’m a guy, I’m a guy. I’ve now put a "Mr" in my name so people can know that. You have no idea what you can reasonably expect from people? (expect nothing. leave room to be surprised)

How does this work in practice? Maybe you’re right. Do you have an example? I was going to comment some more on what you wrote but I’m getting confused now. Jan

Response:

It’s no good to think of "curing" one’s life. I didn’t realise that I too found it morbid

yeah.. curing suggests it’s diseased, huh? I don’t know whether I’m really managing my life. I’m panicking, going from crisis to crisis.

are we twins? I’m going to try to make the shift to "managing" it.

i talk tha talk.. but i can’t walk tha walk.. lemme know when ya figger it out, ok? I’m a guy, I’m a guy. I’ve now put a "Mr" in my name so people can know that.

OOOOOOOOOOOOPS ! sorry… (but you boys are all easy, yanno
in some cases, it’s reasonable to expect to buy a pack’ah cigarettes for 4 bucks, hand em a 5 and getta dollar change…. i don’t think that’s whatchur askin tho… and if you choose to have expectations, i respect that. personally? my reasonable expectations of others and i do mean REASONABLE expectations.. have been shattered like broken glass. (expect nothing. leave room to be surprised)

it’s life, baby ! surprises are what dreams are made of. How does this work in practice? Maybe you’re right. Do you have an example?

ooooooooooooh, i have many. i’ll tell ya one that comes ta mind….. i owned 4 tattoo/piercing shops, (now i have one, i closed the others, and you’ll see why)… and i hired the most motivated, intellectual, charismatic, (i can’t say enuff about him) 19 year old i have ever met.. he ran, by the time he was 20… all of my shops, and a body jewelry mfg business… he lived in my house, we were best friends, he ran my business like a friggin well-oiled machine, and i don’t mean maybe. he was gorgeous, had massive piercings, a walking billboard. he had more charm than carter has little liver pills, he ran my life also, as i know my strength is knowing my weaknesses, and he flew with that. my weakness (well, one anyway) is i cannot lead. i cannot run my life. he ran it for me, i’m a master delegator, he took on that role. he did the set-up and filmed all my jerry springer commercials (no small task), he made it to and from each of my shops in 1/4 the time anyone else could, he was magnanimous. he pierced full-service within 3 weeks. (most take 6 months), he set up outside venues, promoted me like a big bitch, gave me all the glory,, the wind beneath my wings. my expectations of him were not only great, but always, without exception, fulfilled. we had a booth at Sturgis, we were packed, he knew to the penny how much money i could blow on my "flash" (tattoo designs by my fave artists) addiction, we were ready ta go… this is a 4 year stint with this young man. a genius in an industry that is discounted as the "underbelly of society", and rose so far above it… he could KISS DA SKY ! and Sturgis? HERE WE COME ! 4th year in a row.. had ta stop by his mom’s house ta get some paperwork. as fast as he was on his feet, as eager as he was, he was hesitant, in my mind. i went to the front door of his Mom’s house…. he had hung himself from a tree in his parent’s front yard. His name is Tim. i learned then… expectations never win, and it was a lesson for me to leave room to be surprised. I was going to comment some more on what you wrote but I’m getting confused now.

confusion is a feeling. go with it xoxoxoxo ~tanya (Hello, Nasty, where ya been?) Tim? RIP he so loved the Beastie Boys. (no accountin for bad taste in music. LOL)

Response:

Go ahead tanya and interfere….you’re makin me laugh that’s always a good NOT reloading (not yet anyway)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

c’rect me if i’m wrong, but doesn’t one always manage one’s life? if yer the manager, you call the shots, huh? call yer shots in the "care-free" zone. that’s MY personal goal. Instead
well, yeah…. it’s called takin charge, makin decisions, owning your choices, etc. i find that "curing" life is much more morbid than managing.. (but it’s tanya talkin’… so pay no attention) I will try to remember this law. It really helps to learn realistic expectations.

psssssssssst…. (yer managing yer life anyway… seein’ it in print is maybe just freakin ya out) Life Law #8: We teach people how to treat us Strategy: Own, rather than complain, about how people treat you.

I STILL SAY THAT FRIGGIN DR. PHIL STOLE THAT FROM ME AND I’M CALLIN MUH LAWYER ! let HIM manage that’n. HMMPH ! and Jan? (boys are so easily trainab… ummm… i mean manageable… GO WITH IT, GURL !.. ) You have no idea what you can reasonably expect from people?

(expect nothing. leave room to be surprised) Your personal space respected

people in california totally respect personal space. they stand so far apart in the grocery line, i cut in and wasn’t aware. .Value for value relationships with other adults (you GET based on what you GIVE and vice versa).

translation: you teach people how to treat you.. (FUCK YOU, DR. PHIL.. SEE’F I WRITE YOU A LETTER A WEEK EVER AGIN !) When someone is not being civil to you, walking away is how you teach them that they need to be.

translation: (take away their game) Yes, this is strange territory for me. And yes I will ask my therapist about this. I suppose it’s something about being assertive. I don’t know how to assert my needs, I feel guilty when I do.

please note the difference in agression and assertion. i think, actually, you know more than you know you know.
(reload) cha-ching ! 2) forgiving someone does not mean you are saying it’s "ok that they did whatever they did", it’s more like "what you did was wrong, and I’m taking charge of my response to it by forgiving you" – it’s taking back your power

(you ain’t met my stepmother) but yer right, totally right, and sometimes forgiveness is an elusive target. try as one might. 3) we often don’t want to forgive people because we have a certain inherent sense of "justice", and that if we let it go, we are "letting them off the hook", but in our focus on all that, we fail to see that in reality the forgiveness process takes US "off the hook", by allowing us to move ahead with our lives.

::reloadin:: We are no longer mired down in the rage and hatred/venom/other soul toxins… Life is short, why spend it there (mired down in hate/rage) ?

cuz sum people just need killin. it’s just illegal ta do it. wait.. you ain’t talkin ta me.. WHY DO I KEEP INTERFERIN WITH OTHER PEOPLE’S POSTS? ::shuttin up:: ~tanya

Response:

Well then damn it what else do I gots to do to speed up the process?

don’t…. bogart… dat joint……(fer starters) I luv you no matter what you say cause I know you try your best and trying your best works better to show how honesty is a large part in becoming real and doing the right things.

(even if i am a big dumbass?) xoxoxoxoxo ! ~tanya

Response:

Steve: A couple quick thoughts- a) you do NOT want me to treat you like I treat my relatives, trust me on this one. Well Gary you have a point. Lets assume I m

(i just love a happy endin’) ::feelin just like i did when Pee Wee got his bike back::

Response:

Response:

a) you do NOT want me to treat you like I treat my relatives, trust me on this one.

(me thinks Gary and me have da same relatives) b) I, like all people, am able to fall into the trap of pre-conception (although it’s usually based more on behavior, language use, type of dwelling…)

(translation: muh IT boy is a snob) Nonetheless, I am quite able to rise above those things

(but noble !) I don’t watch TV (except HBO on Sunday now & then)

(Real Sex is on HBO on Sunday)
(i go just ta kneel) I’m not sure that I even WAS "taught" that much in school, although I’m sure the New York State Education Department would take issue with that.

note to self: never get in a triage room with a guy that has "Gary" on his name tag. (ditto)

omg, i loved that movie ! or the different rivers in the middle east (might actually need that one day)

(that would be the one in egypt..
(did you sign up for "dealin with Steve 101"? cuz there WAS this cute guy in front of me…. and.. well… nevermind) I submit they taught me nothing about that and that I’ve had to grow and evolve as a person in the real world to learn how to do that.

whoooooooooooa.. and whadda mighty fine job yer doin there ! I disagree, quite plain and simply, with your statement – My standards ARE MOST DEFINITELY based on reality

(which, of course, BYTES!) , and if I even get an inkling of an idea that one of them isn’t, or is becoming a little tainted, I take a serious "sit-down" look at it.

(as long as it’s a sit-down look… and not a "talk"… NO THORZINE FER YOU! ) I also submit that you have a notable pattern of generalizing —

(is this the ASAP daily news? i’m da editor.. submit ta ME !) "who WE do what to", "our standards" "people make decisions based on their own prejudiced experiences".

(that’s called ‘integrity’) That is not a put-down, it is an observation

(semantics) (which I’ve made quite a few times, btw).

Redundancy turns me ON ! Generalizing IS a form of prejudice

::invitin’ Gary ta rethink that’n:: (girls are generally female, fer instance) it saves people from having to really look at the whole span of something and instead just make a blanket statement.

(blanket statements save time .. like "THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE".. wouldn’t ya hate it if key-note speaker named names? i mean ALL OF EM? ) EG:

(i think he meant ie.) "All americans are biased by what they see on TV".

(i think that statement falls under the category of ‘preconception’)… but don’t mind meeeeeeeee Simple, saves me from having to think about the ones who don’t watch TV,

(i don’t watch tv, but wouldja mind thinkin of me anyway?… i mean.. WHADDA BOUT OUR LOVE CHILE ! ) the ones who discern carefully what they hear on TV

(silence….. i can discern that !) and the ones who just don’t believe a word of it

(i never really believed ole Jed was a millionaire.. he was runnin from da law!) because THAT would make it SO much harder for me to make whatever point I was trying to make, now wouldn’t it.

uhhhh…. yuh. Just some food for thought.

NOW YER TALKIN ! SQUASH CASSEROLE ON DA HOUSE ! Kindest Regards,

(chivalry makes me moist) Gary

(DAT BE MUH BABY DAD !!!!!!) (Gary’s gunna whup my fat ass… which makes me all the more happy !) ~(tanya) ack.

Response:

so you think the GOVERNMENT is the solution? On the one hand, you villify them for foreign policy blunders, corruption and ignorance or indifference, yet you would entrust the moral development of children to them? Ethics classes aren’t a horrible idea, but I really do think that sort of thing begins at home, and if it doesn’t (which it often doesn’t, I know this) the government is not the first place I’d be looking to find quality ethics. Just my opinion. Enjoy the day, Gary ps: Why do you concern yourself SO much with things you have absolutely no control over ?????? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve: A couple quick thoughts- a) you do NOT want me to treat you like I treat my relatives, trust me on this one. Well Gary you have a point. Lets assume I meant to say you treat people like you would want to be treated and hopefully that is based on nice values and promoting good things in life . As for generalizing , Gary I tried to give concrete examples. crime at home compared to terror abroad? Do we really promote right values when we virtually have an ongoing crime problem that is virtually un talked about in Presidental primaries but terror abroad is ? I think its a bit hypocritical to suggest to people that they take our form of government when we have thousands more dying here then there. another example I gave was our fight against pollution. If Bush says our air is getting better then I assume that means what he has done is play up to the people he holds worthy of advice , the energy companies. I state that the air is not getting better based on statistics others have given out. It depends on who you believe. Why not side with the kids with asthma? Fast drivers, credit cards companies charging more then bookmakers, competition from illegals and people suing each other in record numbers , one in four people getting treated for mental illness and six million in jails states its more then perceptions , this is reality. One way to change reality is to begin to teach an ethics class in our schools instead of naming the rivers in mideast. especially geared to kids who have little chance of getting the support or love they need from their parents. b) I, like all people, am able to fall into the trap of pre-conception (although it’s usually based more on behavior, language use, type of dwelling…) Nonetheless, I am quite able to rise above those things (primarily by being aware of them) and treat people in what *I consider* (I feel sure you’ll try to dissect that) to be a reasonable, moral and psychologically protective manner. I don’t watch TV (except HBO on Sunday now & then) (I dont own a TV, have to use someone else’s). I never, EVER go to church to hear all that noise and I’m not sure that I even WAS "taught" that much in school, although I’m sure the New York State Education Department would take issue with that. They were so busy teaching me about Amoeba livespan and structure (which I have never ONCE needed to know in 41 years) and how to solve quadratic equations(ditto), or the different rivers in the middle east (might actually need that one day) – what would they have taught me about how to deal with, let’s say, you? I submit they taught me nothing about that and that I’ve had to grow and evolve as a person in the real world to learn how to do that. I disagree, quite plain and simply, with your statement – My standards ARE MOST DEFINITELY based on reality, and if I even get an inkling of an idea that one of them isn’t, or is becoming a little tainted, I take a serious "sit-down" look at it. I also submit that you have a notable pattern of generalizing — "who WE do what to", "our standards" "people make decisions based on their own prejudiced experiences"… That is not a put-down, it is an observation (which I’ve made quite a few times, btw). Generalizing IS a form of prejudice – it saves people from having to really look at the whole span of something and instead just make a blanket statement. EG: "All americans are biased by what they see on TV". Simple, saves me from having to think about the ones who don’t watch TV, the ones who discern carefully what they hear on TV, and the ones who just don’t believe a word of it – because THAT would make it SO much harder for me to make whatever point I was trying to make, now wouldn’t it. Just some food for thought. Kindest Regards, Gary Life Law #8: We teach people how to treat us that has been my motto for years. Dr. Phil is a THIEF ! …. and i’m glad to see you two are treating each other with the due respect everyone on this planet deserves. differences are to be cherished, cuz when ya delve deep… we’re all in this thing tagether. KUDOS ! I treat people with respect and I follow the laws, but I just want the world to do to me like they would do their relatives . IMPOSSIBLE though because our standards , who we do what to are based on preconceived perceptions ( race, height, sex, religion). That simple statement applies to rest of world also. Our standards are not based on reality its about who gets tv programming and who sees what tvnews producers want you to see and what your local preacher has told you last Sunday and what your taught in schools. If its not fair , or objective, your not going to treat people fair or objective. xoxoxxoxoxox ~tanya

Response:

No I don’t tell you to shddup STEVE ! good lord, i was jokin and don’t tell me you don’t know me well enuff ta know that ! i swear fore GAWD i’m comin ovah theah ! Well then damn it what else do I gots to do to speed up the process?

I luv you no matter what you say cause I know you try your best and trying your best works better to show how honesty is a large part in becoming real and doing the right things. steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I want this a better world. The world is bent because people can’t seem to do or try to do the right things. i gotcha sum suthern pecan pie ice cream… now THAT is right, dammit ! Two people hate what I say who? (i ain’t nosey or nuttin’) So bell I understand your upset with me and I pray you feel differently one day and are happy. oh fer tha luv’ah god… i ain’t upset with you one bit ! i was bein goofy ! i love whacha got ta say, Steve… i’m sorry you took me the way i didn’t intend. now kiss me , ya fool !

Response:

No I don’t tell you to shddup

STEVE ! good lord, i was jokin and don’t tell me you don’t know me well enuff ta know that ! i swear fore GAWD i’m comin ovah theah ! I want this a better world. The world is bent because people can’t seem to do or try to do the right things.

i gotcha sum suthern pecan pie ice cream… now THAT is right, dammit ! Two people hate what I say

who? (i ain’t nosey or nuttin’) So bell I understand your upset with me and I pray you feel differently one day and are happy.

oh fer tha luv’ah god… i ain’t upset with you one bit ! i was bein goofy ! i love whacha got ta say, Steve… i’m sorry you took me the way i didn’t intend. now kiss me , ya fool !

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Life Law #8: We teach people how to treat us that has been my motto for years. Dr. Phil is a THIEF ! …. and i’m glad to see you two are treating each other with the due respect everyone on this planet deserves. differences are to be cherished, cuz when ya delve deep… we’re all in this thing tagether. KUDOS !

I treat people with respect and I follow the laws, but I just want the world to do to me like they would do their relatives . IMPOSSIBLE though because our standards , who we do what to are based on preconceived perceptions ( race, height, sex, religion). That simple statement applies to rest of world also. Our standards are not based on reality its about who gets tv programming and who sees what tvnews producers want you to see and what your local preacher has told you last Sunday and what your taught in schools. If its not fair , or objective, your not going to treat people fair or objective. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – xoxoxxoxoxox ~tanya

Response:

Steve: A couple quick thoughts- a) you do NOT want me to treat you like I treat my relatives, trust me on this one.

Well Gary you have a point. Lets assume I meant to say you treat people like you would want to be treated and hopefully that is based on nice values and promoting good things in life . As for generalizing , Gary I tried to give concrete examples. crime at home compared to terror abroad? Do we really promote right values when we virtually have an ongoing crime problem that is virtually un talked about in Presidental primaries but terror abroad is ? I think its a bit hypocritical to suggest to people that they take our form of government when we have thousands more dying here then there. another example I gave was our fight against pollution. If Bush says our air is getting better then I assume that means what he has done is play up to the people he holds worthy of advice , the energy companies. I state that the air is not getting better based on statistics others have given out. It depends on who you believe. Why not side with the kids with asthma? Fast drivers, credit cards companies charging more then bookmakers, competition from illegals and people suing each other in record numbers , one in four people getting treated for mental illness and six million in jails states its more then perceptions , this is reality. One way to change reality is to begin to teach an ethics class in our schools instead of naming the rivers in mideast. especially geared to kids who have little chance of getting the support or love they need from their parents. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – b) I, like all people, am able to fall into the trap of pre-conception (although it’s usually based more on behavior, language use, type of dwelling…) Nonetheless, I am quite able to rise above those things (primarily by being aware of them) and treat people in what *I consider* (I feel sure you’ll try to dissect that) to be a reasonable, moral and psychologically protective manner. I don’t watch TV (except HBO on Sunday now & then) (I dont own a TV, have to use someone else’s). I never, EVER go to church to hear all that noise and I’m not sure that I even WAS "taught" that much in school, although I’m sure the New York State Education Department would take issue with that. They were so busy teaching me about Amoeba livespan and structure (which I have never ONCE needed to know in 41 years) and how to solve quadratic equations(ditto), or the different rivers in the middle east (might actually need that one day) – what would they have taught me about how to deal with, let’s say, you? I submit they taught me nothing about that and that I’ve had to grow and evolve as a person in the real world to learn how to do that. I disagree, quite plain and simply, with your statement – My standards ARE MOST DEFINITELY based on reality, and if I even get an inkling of an idea that one of them isn’t, or is becoming a little tainted, I take a serious "sit-down" look at it. I also submit that you have a notable pattern of generalizing — "who WE do what to", "our standards" "people make decisions based on their own prejudiced experiences"… That is not a put-down, it is an observation (which I’ve made quite a few times, btw). Generalizing IS a form of prejudice – it saves people from having to really look at the whole span of something and instead just make a blanket statement. EG: "All americans are biased by what they see on TV". Simple, saves me from having to think about the ones who don’t watch TV, the ones who discern carefully what they hear on TV, and the ones who just don’t believe a word of it – because THAT would make it SO much harder for me to make whatever point I was trying to make, now wouldn’t it. Just some food for thought. Kindest Regards, Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Life Law #8: We teach people how to treat us that has been my motto for years. Dr. Phil is a THIEF ! …. and i’m glad to see you two are treating each other with the due respect everyone on this planet deserves. differences are to be cherished, cuz when ya delve deep… we’re all in this thing tagether. KUDOS ! I treat people with respect and I follow the laws, but I just want the world to do to me like they would do their relatives . IMPOSSIBLE though because our standards , who we do what to are based on preconceived perceptions ( race, height, sex, religion). That simple statement applies to rest of world also. Our standards are not based on reality its about who gets tv programming and who sees what tvnews producers want you to see and what your local preacher has told you last Sunday and what your taught in schools. If its not fair , or objective, your not going to treat people fair or objective. xoxoxxoxoxox ~tanya

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – , but I just want the world to do to me like they would do their relatives ummmmm… ya do? i was in the psych ward for quite some time for attempting homicide on one of my relatives…. (maybe that ain’t whatcha meant) IMPOSSIBLE though because our standards , who we do what to are based on preconceived perceptions ( race, height, sex, religion). That simple statement applies to rest of world also. Our standards are not based on reality its about who gets tv programming and who sees what tvnews producers want you to see and what your local preacher has told you last Sunday and what your taught in schools. If its not fair , or objective, your not going to treat people fair or objective. Steve? shaddup !

No I don’t tell you to shddup. I want this a better world. The world is bent because people can’t seem to do or try to do the right things. Every interest ( rich) has reasons to control the rest, not necessarily based on doing right things . Pollution is one such example. Fighting terror abroad without targeting crime and reasons for it at home. People act out and its often based on sterotypes we learn from school , religion and or tv. Everyone needs someone or something to blame . If you base life with nice perspective, you feel nice about yourself and you understand the connections that motivate . If you ignore all correlations and just accept everything as status quo nothing will change. The best changes I ever made was from becoming aware of the connections. Two people hate what I say. The people who we taught to hate or who act out and don’t want or need to see the connections , and the people who have learned to get along without doing so and I seem to threaten their existence . I realize lots of people just don’t care what I say. From stocks trading to people suing everyone to pollution , we must do the right things and understand how it affects the world. So bell I understand your upset with me and I pray you feel differently one day and are happy. Ier? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – xoxoxoxxoxo ~tanya

Response:

Steve: A couple quick thoughts- a) you do NOT want me to treat you like I treat my relatives, trust me on this one. b) I, like all people, am able to fall into the trap of pre-conception (although it’s usually based more on behavior, language use, type of dwelling…) Nonetheless, I am quite able to rise above those things (primarily by being aware of them) and treat people in what *I consider* (I feel sure you’ll try to dissect that) to be a reasonable, moral and psychologically protective manner. I don’t watch TV (except HBO on Sunday now & then) (I dont own a TV, have to use someone else’s). I never, EVER go to church to hear all that noise and I’m not sure that I even WAS "taught" that much in school, although I’m sure the New York State Education Department would take issue with that. They were so busy teaching me about Amoeba livespan and structure (which I have never ONCE needed to know in 41 years) and how to solve quadratic equations(ditto), or the different rivers in the middle east (might actually need that one day) – what would they have taught me about how to deal with, let’s say, you? I submit they taught me nothing about that and that I’ve had to grow and evolve as a person in the real world to learn how to do that. I disagree, quite plain and simply, with your statement – My standards ARE MOST DEFINITELY based on reality, and if I even get an inkling of an idea that one of them isn’t, or is becoming a little tainted, I take a serious "sit-down" look at it. I also submit that you have a notable pattern of generalizing — "who WE do what to", "our standards" "people make decisions based on their own prejudiced experiences"… That is not a put-down, it is an observation (which I’ve made quite a few times, btw). Generalizing IS a form of prejudice – it saves people from having to really look at the whole span of something and instead just make a blanket statement. EG: "All americans are biased by what they see on TV". Simple, saves me from having to think about the ones who don’t watch TV, the ones who discern carefully what they hear on TV, and the ones who just don’t believe a word of it – because THAT would make it SO much harder for me to make whatever point I was trying to make, now wouldn’t it. Just some food for thought. Kindest Regards, Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Life Law #8: We teach people how to treat us that has been my motto for years. Dr. Phil is a THIEF ! …. and i’m glad to see you two are treating each other with the due respect everyone on this planet deserves. differences are to be cherished, cuz when ya delve deep… we’re all in this thing tagether. KUDOS ! I treat people with respect and I follow the laws, but I just want the world to do to me like they would do their relatives . IMPOSSIBLE though because our standards , who we do what to are based on preconceived perceptions ( race, height, sex, religion). That simple statement applies to rest of world also. Our standards are not based on reality its about who gets tv programming and who sees what tvnews producers want you to see and what your local preacher has told you last Sunday and what your taught in schools. If its not fair , or objective, your not going to treat people fair or objective. xoxoxxoxoxox ~tanya

Response:

, but I just want the world to do to me like they would do their relatives

ummmmm… ya do? i was in the psych ward for quite some time for attempting homicide on one of my relatives…. (maybe that ain’t whatcha meant) IMPOSSIBLE though because our standards , who we do what to are based on preconceived perceptions ( race, height, sex, religion). That simple statement applies to rest of world also. Our standards are not based on reality its about who gets tv programming and who sees what tvnews producers want you to see and what your local preacher has told you last Sunday and what your taught in schools. If its not fair , or objective, your not going to treat people fair or objective.

Steve? shaddup ! xoxoxoxxoxo ~tanya

Response:

Life Law #8: We teach people how to treat us

that has been my motto for years. Dr. Phil is a THIEF ! …. and i’m glad to see you two are treating each other with the due respect everyone on this planet deserves. differences are to be cherished, cuz when ya delve deep… we’re all in this thing tagether. KUDOS ! xoxoxxoxoxox ~tanya

Response:

I’m just glad you took the time and patience to read them Steve. I hope all the ventilating helped in some way. Kindest Regards, Gary Hi Gary, But of course

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This came from a pop-psych guy who I am not OVERLY fond of, however I do like the list, and thought I’d share it. Life Law #1: You either get it, or you don’t. Strategy: Become one of those who gets it. 1. sounds good but gets what? Is that like saying you either decide to live or die? Life Law #2: You create your own experience Strategy: Acknowledge and accept accountability for your life. 2.That also sounds good except if your brain is devoid of good serotonin or natural endorphin levels , you feel left out of the world, you were a victim of abuse or you experienced life altering experiences . Sure you can learn to get past it but if your suppose to just be responsible and your not sure how or what to change it will never happen successfully. Period.Psychology tests have shown some of what I just stated to be true Life Law #3: People do what works Strategy: Identify the payoffs that drive your behavior and that of others. 3.Sometimes what works is doing what parents or street gang did and unfortunately what works doesn’t mean its a successful .People may get what they want by bullying or lying to others and they might be supported and it might work but it don’t mean its right. Life Law #4: You cannot change what you do not acknowledge. Strategy: Get real with yourself about your life AND everybody in it. 4. Well I think this is the fist life law I accept except even though for many people don’t have a clue what to acknowledge. Life Law #5: Life rewards action Strategy: Make careful decisions and then pull the trigger. 5.Life also penalizes action. If you have money to invest in stocks . pulling the trigger might make you broke. What quantitifies careful decisions if what someone does, circumstents all your decisions (bad ceos bad family or friends) So I am not sure of this either.. People make decisions based on their own prejudiced experiences. They may not know any better. Life in Us is not always about telling small people what to do, rather we are suppose to witness the freedom to make mistakes and be successful thru watching tv or reading papers. . We are somehow suppose to assume people who are not around success to make the right decisions and that simply might not happen. the rest later Life Law #6: There is no reality, only perception. Strategy: Identify the filters through which you view the world. 6. What happened to get real with your life number four? What filters are that? The glucose filters that make one want to eat and sleep instead of face reality? Or the reality filters. : people mean, stocks are fixed, if you want to exercise and the air is dirty? Many people are in act out mode,lying faster drivers, crime, mental illness, this is often hell on earth , top one percent getting more and more of nations wealth. Un rationalizes hate. Now do I need my optimistic filter? That filter says ignore the rest. I can do that for awhile also. 99 percent of the worlds problems are because people dont treat each other like they would want to be treated. So is reality perception or perception reality or is it amount of endorphins we have or don’t have., amounts of adrenlin we have or don’t have? Life Law #7: Life is managed, it is not cured. Strategy: Learn to take charge of your life AGREED I guess, no matter how, if your living and an adult you are taking charge. The only way your not taking charge is if your locked up or committed. OR your in DENIAL .. Hello? ? ? Life Law #8: We teach people how to treat us Strategy: Own, rather than complain, about how people treat you. 8.To some extent I believe that. This gets back to perceptions. If you grew up with dysfunctional people you have to learn what to say to get by.You blow all caution to the wind , give up all your values just so you learn to react based on what someone wants and you move on. Complain and you might be in big trouble .So what is owning how to get people to treat us? Do you have to look like movie star? Or do you have to lock into their believe or value system? Or be good actors? Sometimes I do believe you have to evolve to where they are. This doesn’t mean this is good. This just means in order to survive learn to play the games people want played. If it was just about about reality or love and good values then we would have no need to teach people anything. Life Law #9: There is power in forgiveness. Strategy: Open your eyes to what anger and resentment are doing to you. Yep reality is bitch. Who do I forgive first? The drug pushers, the stock ceos and mms who take or took 10 trillion? , the muslims and Un that makes nazims presentable, the parents that are not there for their kids?, the criminals that make going out scary often enough, where you can’t leave your doors open or trust anyone? I am sorry , there ok? Life Law #10: You have to name it before you can claim it. Strategy: Get clear about what you want and take your turn. 10. there you go , I believe yo have to name it before you can claim it and therein lies the big percent of worlds problems, cause they are in denial. The problem we would havethough first , is to name 1000s of things we haven’t named , just before we had a chance to all decide to do the right things to correct them. This is, to be clear, copyrighted material written by Dr. Phil McGraw in a

Response:

Life Law #7: Life is managed, it is not cured. Strategy: Learn to take charge of your life

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This came from a pop-psych guy who I am not OVERLY fond of, however I do like the list, and thought I’d share it. I’m not so sure about these formulas that these gurus and whatnots come up with. I suppose we just have to pick and choose what works for us. Life Law #1: You either get it, or you don’t. Strategy: Become one of those who gets it. What does this mean exactly? How does one become one who gets it? Isn’t that what we’re all trying to do with varying degrees of success? Life Law #2: You create your own experience Strategy: Acknowledge and accept accountability for your life. I agree with this one. And I admit I have an issue with taking responsibility. Life Law #3: People do what works Strategy: Identify the payoffs that drive your behavior and that of others. Yes, we should do what works. That’s the only measure of anything I suppose. Life Law #4: You cannot change what you do not acknowledge. Strategy: Get real with yourself about your life AND everybody in it. Again, the responsibility thing. Life Law #5: Life rewards action Strategy: Make careful decisions and then pull the trigger. Umm, this is a difficult one for me personally. I’m afraid of doing things for fear of things not working out. Life Law #6: There is no reality, only perception. Strategy: Identify the filters through which you view the world. Is this really true? That there is no reality, only perception? This seems like a really serious metaphysical topic. This is no easy topic to discuss. Life Law #7: Life is managed, it is not cured. Strategy: Learn to take charge of your life Interesting. That life is managed and not cured, what does that imply? I shouldn’t expect to one day have a care-free life. Instead I need to be aware that my life will need "managing" right the way through? Life Law #8: We teach people how to treat us Strategy: Own, rather than complain, about how people treat you. I have no idea about this one. I don’t know what I reasonably can expect from people. And I certainly don’t know what I’m going to teach them. Life Law #9: There is power in forgiveness. Strategy: Open your eyes to what anger and resentment are doing to you. Forgiveness isn’t easy. And I have NO idea how to do it. Asking someone to forgive is like asking a blind person to see. I can see my anger and resentment are hurting me but I can’t just turn it off. Life Law #10: You have to name it before you can claim it. Strategy: Get clear about what you want and take your turn. Yes, getting clear about things is important. Kinda difficult though when one’s in continuous anxiety. What does he mean by "taking your turn"? This is, to be clear, copyrighted material written by Dr. Phil McGraw in a book which I don’t even remember the name of. I do remember that this list impressed me more than any of the rest of the book. I’m a little skeptical of law #3, only because I bear witness (so often) to people doing what doesn’t work…however he was probably trying to make a point about secondary gains or something. Number 4, 7 and 9 are my personal favorites. I like 2,4,7 and 9. I don’t understand 3 so well. Jan

Response:

I’m just glad you took the time and patience to read them Steve. I hope all the ventilating helped in some way. Kindest Regards, Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This came from a pop-psych guy who I am not OVERLY fond of, however I do like the list, and thought I’d share it. Life Law #1: You either get it, or you don’t. Strategy: Become one of those who gets it. 1. sounds good but gets what? Is that like saying you either decide to live or die? Life Law #2: You create your own experience Strategy: Acknowledge and accept accountability for your life. 2.That also sounds good except if your brain is devoid of good serotonin or natural endorphin levels , you feel left out of the world, you were a victim of abuse or you experienced life altering experiences . Sure you can learn to get past it but if your suppose to just be responsible and your not sure how or what to change it will never happen successfully. Period.Psychology tests have shown some of what I just stated to be true Life Law #3: People do what works Strategy: Identify the payoffs that drive your behavior and that of others. 3.Sometimes what works is doing what parents or street gang did and unfortunately what works doesn’t mean its a successful .People may get what they want by bullying or lying to others and they might be supported and it might work but it don’t mean its right. Life Law #4: You cannot change what you do not acknowledge. Strategy: Get real with yourself about your life AND everybody in it. 4. Well I think this is the fist life law I accept except even though for many people don’t have a clue what to acknowledge. Life Law #5: Life rewards action Strategy: Make careful decisions and then pull the trigger. 5.Life also penalizes action. If you have money to invest in stocks . pulling the trigger might make you broke. What quantitifies careful decisions if what someone does, circumstents all your decisions (bad ceos bad family or friends) So I am not sure of this either.. People make decisions based on their own prejudiced experiences. They may not know any better. Life in Us is not always about telling small people what to do, rather we are suppose to witness the freedom to make mistakes and be successful thru watching tv or reading papers. . We are somehow suppose to assume people who are not around success to make the right decisions and that simply might not happen. the rest later Life Law #6: There is no reality, only perception. Strategy: Identify the filters through which you view the world. 6. What happened to get real with your life number four? What filters are that? The glucose filters that make one want to eat and sleep instead of face reality? Or the reality filters. : people mean, stocks are fixed, if you want to exercise and the air is dirty? Many people are in act out mode,lying faster drivers, crime, mental illness, this is often hell on earth , top one percent getting more and more of nations wealth. Un rationalizes hate. Now do I need my optimistic filter? That filter says ignore the rest. I can do that for awhile also. 99 percent of the worlds problems are because people dont treat each other like they would want to be treated. So is reality perception or perception reality or is it amount of endorphins we have or don’t have., amounts of adrenlin we have or don’t have? Life Law #7: Life is managed, it is not cured. Strategy: Learn to take charge of your life AGREED I guess, no matter how, if your living and an adult you are taking charge. The only way your not taking charge is if your locked up or committed. OR your in DENIAL .. Hello? ? ? Life Law #8: We teach people how to treat us Strategy: Own, rather than complain, about how people treat you. 8.To some extent I believe that. This gets back to perceptions. If you grew up with dysfunctional people you have to learn what to say to get by.You blow all caution to the wind , give up all your values just so you learn to react based on what someone wants and you move on. Complain and you might be in big trouble .So what is owning how to get people to treat us? Do you have to look like movie star? Or do you have to lock into their believe or value system? Or be good actors? Sometimes I do believe you have to evolve to where they are. This doesn’t mean this is good. This just means in order to survive learn to play the games people want played. If it was just about about reality or love and good values then we would have no need to teach people anything. Life Law #9: There is power in forgiveness. Strategy: Open your eyes to what anger and resentment are doing to you. Yep reality is bitch. Who do I forgive first? The drug pushers, the stock ceos and mms who take or took 10 trillion? , the muslims and Un that makes nazims presentable, the parents that are not there for their kids?, the criminals that make going out scary often enough, where you can’t leave your doors open or trust anyone? I am sorry , there ok? Life Law #10: You have to name it before you can claim it. Strategy: Get clear about what you want and take your turn. 10. there you go , I believe yo have to name it before you can claim it and therein lies the big percent of worlds problems, cause they are in denial. The problem we would havethough first , is to name 1000s of things we haven’t named , just before we had a chance to all decide to do the right things to correct them. This is, to be clear, copyrighted material written by Dr. Phil McGraw in a

Response:

This came from a pop-psych guy who I am not OVERLY fond of, however I do like the list, and thought I’d share it. Life Law #1: You either get it, or you don’t. Strategy: Become one of those who gets it.

1. sounds good but gets what? Is that like saying you either decide to live or die? Life Law #2: You create your own experience Strategy: Acknowledge and accept accountability for your life.

2.That also sounds good except if your brain is devoid of good serotonin or natural endorphin levels , you feel left out of the world, you were a victim of abuse or you experienced life altering experiences . Sure you can learn to get past it but if your suppose to just be responsible and your not sure how or what to change it will never happen successfully. Period.Psychology tests have shown some of what I just stated to be true Life Law #3: People do what works Strategy: Identify the payoffs that drive your behavior and that of

others. 3.Sometimes what works is doing what parents or street gang did and unfortunately what works doesn’t mean its a successful .People may get what they want by bullying or lying to others and they might be supported and it might work but it don’t mean its right. Life Law #4: You cannot change what you do not acknowledge. Strategy: Get real with yourself about your life AND everybody in it.

4. Well I think this is the fist life law I accept except even though for many people don’t have a clue what to acknowledge. Life Law #5: Life rewards action Strategy: Make careful decisions and then pull the trigger.

5.Life also penalizes action. If you have money to invest in stocks . pulling the trigger might make you broke. What quantitifies careful decisions if what someone does, circumstents all your decisions (bad ceos bad family or friends) So I am not sure of this either.. People make decisions based on their own prejudiced experiences. They may not know any better. Life in Us is not always about telling small people what to do, rather we are suppose to witness the freedom to make mistakes and be successful thru watching tv or reading papers. . We are somehow suppose to assume people who are not around success to make the right decisions and that simply might not happen. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the rest later Life Law #6: There is no reality, only perception. Strategy: Identify the filters through which you view the world. Life Law #7: Life is managed, it is not cured. Strategy: Learn to take charge of your life Life Law #8: We teach people how to treat us Strategy: Own, rather than complain, about how people treat you. Life Law #9: There is power in forgiveness. Strategy: Open your eyes to what anger and resentment are doing to you. Life Law #10: You have to name it before you can claim it. Strategy: Get clear about what you want and take your turn. This is, to be clear, copyrighted material written by Dr. Phil McGraw in a book which I don’t even remember the name of. I do remember that this list impressed me more than any of the rest of the book. I’m a little skeptical of law #3, only because I bear witness (so often) to people doing what doesn’t work…however he was probably trying to make a point about secondary gains or something. Number 4, 7 and 9 are my personal favorites.

Response:

This came from a pop-psych guy who I am not OVERLY fond of, however I do like the list, and thought I’d share it.

I’m not so sure about these formulas that these gurus and whatnots come up with. I suppose we just have to pick and choose what works for us. Life Law #1: You either get it, or you don’t. Strategy: Become one of those who gets it.

What does this mean exactly? How does one become one who gets it? Isn’t that what we’re all trying to do with varying degrees of success? Life Law #2: You create your own experience Strategy: Acknowledge and accept accountability for your life.

I agree with this one. And I admit I have an issue with taking responsibility. Life Law #3: People do what works Strategy: Identify the payoffs that drive your behavior and that of others.

Yes, we should do what works. That’s the only measure of anything I suppose. Life Law #4: You cannot change what you do not acknowledge. Strategy: Get real with yourself about your life AND everybody in it.

Again, the responsibility thing. Life Law #5: Life rewards action Strategy: Make careful decisions and then pull the trigger.

Umm, this is a difficult one for me personally. I’m afraid of doing things for fear of things not working out. Life Law #6: There is no reality, only perception. Strategy: Identify the filters through which you view the world.

Is this really true? That there is no reality, only perception? This seems like a really serious metaphysical topic. This is no easy topic to discuss. Life Law #7: Life is managed, it is not cured. Strategy: Learn to take charge of your life

Interesting. That life is managed and not cured, what does that imply? I shouldn’t expect to one day have a care-free life. Instead I need to be aware that my life will need "managing" right the way through? Life Law #8: We teach people how to treat us Strategy: Own, rather than complain, about how people treat you.

I have no idea about this one. I don’t know what I reasonably can expect from people. And I certainly don’t know what I’m going to teach them. Life Law #9: There is power in forgiveness. Strategy: Open your eyes to what anger and resentment are doing to you.

Forgiveness isn’t easy. And I have NO idea how to do it. Asking someone to forgive is like asking a blind person to see. I can see my anger and resentment are hurting me but I can’t just turn it off. Life Law #10: You have to name it before you can claim it. Strategy: Get clear about what you want and take your turn.

Yes, getting clear about things is important. Kinda difficult though when one’s in continuous anxiety. What does he mean by "taking your turn"? This is, to be clear, copyrighted material written by Dr. Phil McGraw in a book which I don’t even remember the name of. I do remember that this list impressed me more than any of the rest of the book. I’m a little skeptical of law #3, only because I bear witness (so often) to people doing what doesn’t work…however he was probably trying to make a point about secondary gains or something. Number 4, 7 and 9 are my personal favorites.

I like 2,4,7 and 9. I don’t understand 3 so well. Jan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This came from a pop-psych guy who I am not OVERLY fond of, however I do like the list, and thought I’d share it. Life Law #1: You either get it, or you don’t. Strategy: Become one of those who gets it. 1. sounds good but gets what? Is that like saying you either decide to live or die? Life Law #2: You create your own experience Strategy: Acknowledge and accept accountability for your life. 2.That also sounds good except if your brain is devoid of good serotonin or natural endorphin levels , you feel left out of the world, you were a victim of abuse or you experienced life altering experiences . Sure you can learn to get past it but if your suppose to just be responsible and your not sure how or what to change it will never happen successfully. Period.Psychology tests have shown some of what I just stated to be true Life Law #3: People do what works Strategy: Identify the payoffs that drive your behavior and that of others. 3.Sometimes what works is doing what parents or street gang did and unfortunately what works doesn’t mean its a successful .People may get what they want by bullying or lying to others and they might be supported and it might work but it don’t mean its right. Life Law #4: You cannot change what you do not acknowledge. Strategy: Get real with yourself about your life AND everybody in it. 4. Well I think this is the fist life law I accept except even though for many people don’t have a clue what to acknowledge. Life Law #5: Life rewards action Strategy: Make careful decisions and then pull the trigger. 5.Life also penalizes action. If you have money to invest in stocks . pulling the trigger might make you broke. What quantitifies careful decisions if what someone does, circumstents all your decisions (bad ceos bad family or friends) So I am not sure of this either.. People make decisions based on their own prejudiced experiences. They may not know any better. Life in Us is not always about telling small people what to do, rather we are suppose to witness the freedom to make mistakes and be successful thru watching tv or reading papers. . We are somehow suppose to assume people who are not around success to make the right decisions and that simply might not happen. the rest later Life Law #6: There is no reality, only perception. Strategy: Identify the filters through which you view the world.

6. What happened to get real with your life number four? What filters are that? The glucose filters that make one want to eat and sleep instead of face reality? Or the reality filters. : people mean, stocks are fixed, if you want to exercise and the air is dirty? Many people are in act out mode,lying faster drivers, crime, mental illness, this is often hell on earth , top one percent getting more and more of nations wealth. Un rationalizes hate. Now do I need my optimistic filter? That filter says ignore the rest. I can do that for awhile also. 99 percent of the worlds problems are because people dont treat each other like they would want to be treated. So is reality perception or perception reality or is it amount of endorphins we have or don’t have., amounts of adrenlin we have or don’t have? Life Law #7: Life is managed, it is not cured. Strategy: Learn to take charge of your life

AGREED I guess, no matter how, if your living and an adult you are taking charge. The only way your not taking charge is if your locked up or committed. OR your in DENIAL .. Hello? ? ? Life Law #8: We teach people how to treat us Strategy: Own, rather than complain, about how people treat you.

8.To some extent I believe that. This gets back to perceptions. If you grew up with dysfunctional people you have to learn what to say to get by.You blow all caution to the wind , give up all your values just so you learn to react based on what someone wants and you move on. Complain and you might be in big trouble .So what is owning how to get people to treat us? Do you have to look like movie star? Or do you have to lock into their believe or value system? Or be good actors? Sometimes I do believe you have to evolve to where they are. This doesn’t mean this is good. This just means in order to survive learn to play the games people want played. If it was just about about reality or love and good values then we would have no need to teach people anything. Life Law #9: There is power in forgiveness. Strategy: Open your eyes to what anger and resentment are doing to you.

Yep reality is bitch. Who do I forgive first? The drug pushers, the stock ceos and mms who take or took 10 trillion? , the muslims and Un that makes nazims presentable, the parents that are not there for their kids?, the criminals that make going out scary often enough, where you can’t leave your doors open or trust anyone? I am sorry , there ok? Life Law #10: You have to name it before you can claim it. Strategy: Get clear about what you want and take your turn.

10. there you go , I believe yo have to name it before you can claim it and therein lies the big percent of worlds problems, cause they are in denial. The problem we would havethough first , is to name 1000s of things we haven’t named , just before we had a chance to all decide to do the right things to correct them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is, to be clear, copyrighted material written by Dr. Phil McGraw in a

Response:

This came from a pop-psych guy who I am not OVERLY fond of, however I do like the list, and thought I’d share it. Life Law #1: You either get it, or you don’t. Strategy: Become one of those who gets it. Life Law #2: You create your own experience Strategy: Acknowledge and accept accountability for your life. Life Law #3: People do what works Strategy: Identify the payoffs that drive your behavior and that of others. Life Law #4: You cannot change what you do not acknowledge. Strategy: Get real with yourself about your life AND everybody in it. Life Law #5: Life rewards action Strategy: Make careful decisions and then pull the trigger. Life Law #6: There is no reality, only perception. Strategy: Identify the filters through which you view the world. Life Law #7: Life is managed, it is not cured. Strategy: Learn to take charge of your life Life Law #8: We teach people how to treat us Strategy: Own, rather than complain, about how people treat you. Life Law #9: There is power in forgiveness. Strategy: Open your eyes to what anger and resentment are doing to you. Life Law #10: You have to name it before you can claim it. Strategy: Get clear about what you want and take your turn. This is, to be clear, copyrighted material written by Dr. Phil McGraw in a book which I don’t even remember the name of. I do remember that this list impressed me more than any of the rest of the book. I’m a little skeptical of law #3, only because I bear witness (so often) to people doing what doesn’t work…however he was probably trying to make a point about secondary gains or something. Number 4, 7 and 9 are my personal favorites.

Response:

I like all of em…….thanks for posting.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This came from a pop-psych guy who I am not OVERLY fond of, however I do like the list, and thought I’d share it. Life Law #1: You either get it, or you don’t. Strategy: Become one of those who gets it. Life Law #2: You create your own experience Strategy: Acknowledge and accept accountability for your life. Life Law #3: People do what works Strategy: Identify the payoffs that drive your behavior and that of others. Life Law #4: You cannot change what you do not acknowledge. Strategy: Get real with yourself about your life AND everybody in it. Life Law #5: Life rewards action Strategy: Make careful decisions and then pull the trigger. Life Law #6: There is no reality, only perception. Strategy: Identify the filters through which you view the world. Life Law #7: Life is managed, it is not cured. Strategy: Learn to take charge of your life Life Law #8: We teach people how to treat us Strategy: Own, rather than complain, about how people treat you. Life Law #9: There is power in forgiveness. Strategy: Open your eyes to what anger and resentment are doing to you. Life Law #10: You have to name it before you can claim it. Strategy: Get clear about what you want and take your turn. This is, to be clear, copyrighted material written by Dr. Phil McGraw in a book which I don’t even remember the name of. I do remember that this list impressed me more than any of the rest of the book. I’m a little skeptical of law #3, only because I bear witness (so often) to people doing what doesn’t work…however he was probably trying to make a point about secondary gains or something. Number 4, 7 and 9 are my personal favorites.

Response:

Tattoo help.

admin — Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I’ve been 18 since January of this year and want to get a tattoo. I’m a senior in high school and lately, there’s been a ton of people that are getting tattoos in my grade. The only problem is I have two choices and can’t decide which one to get . My first choice is that since I’m a runner (Four years of Cross Country and a combined eight seasons of winter and spring track.) I want to get the runners foot. The only problem is that everyone that I see isn’t good engough for my tattoo, I keep coming across the ones in sandals, I want one in a shoe, almost like a runner’s shoe. The next one is just your average run of the mill tribal sun. I like this because of the fact that it’s at every shop and there’s a ton of them. The spot that I would get it on is my lower calf, right above my ankle. The one that I’m leaning towards is the foot, becuase of the fact that it’s going to be the only one that I know of. The only question is where would I find a picture of a more modern foot, not the one in the sandal. I really want to get this one before the end of the year, so I can have my fifteen minutes of fame. This would really help me out. If I can’t find a good picture of one, about how much woulf it cost to have one custom drawn? Also, how much would it cost, I want it to be small, this way it looks tastful. Thanks alot.

Response:

Also, how much would it cost, I want it to be small

*** Three hundred and fifty dollars. Plus a four dollar tip. Hope this helps you. Good luck! — k e i t h a l e x a n d e r http://www.nootrope.net http://www.modernamerican.com aim: nootrope9 boodoe – - e n d t r a n s m i s s i o n – -

Response:

[snip]want to get a tattoo. [snip] first choice [snip] runners foot.

http://images.google.com/images?q=track+foot [snip] next [snip] tribal sun.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tribal+sun [snip] cost to have one custom drawn? [snip]

Cost would vary from zero to sky’s the limit for the drawing. The shop minimum at Visual Addiction was $75.00 for a tattoo. Call a shop local to you to get more information, of course. Befriend an artist at your school? If there are no good artists in your classes then how close are you to the nearest art school/university? And I’d go for wings tattooed without the shoe a la Mercury, but the link above offers a few images with the shoe versus sandal. I was four years cross country and two years track in high school, by the way. Best of luck with your decision. — Curt http://curt_james.livejournal.com/ — Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Response:

J I want it to be small, this way it looks tastful. then i certainly can’t help you. http://tinyurl.com/ail9 lish "no one is too young 40.1% / 30 RANA 125 / 68

Response:

The only problem is that everyone that I see isn’t good engough for my tattoo

so get a whole bunch of pictures that are sort of what you want, find a good artist who will be able to take your idea and draw exactly what you want, and have her put it on your skin. If you’re worried that they can’t draw very good, think about whether they’ll be able to draw very good when they’re using a needle on skin? The next one is just your average run of the mill tribal sun. I like this because of the fact that it’s at every shop and there’s a ton of them.

this is a good thing because…? if you need to get something the tattooist has done a million times, just to make sure he doesn’t fuck it up, chances are you’re at the wrong place. if you need to get something on your skin so that you’ll match all your friends, get a stick-on. if you want something a little more "daring" to match all your friends, get a belly button ring or eyebrow barbell. leave the permanent stuff for people who won’t regret it before they even graduate college. — * ** *** **** ***** ****** Mercedes ****** ***** **** *** ** * SPAMGUARD: remove Pi (think back to high school) from email.

Response:

Jay wrote… The only problem is that everyone that I see isn’t good engough for my tattoo, I keep coming across the ones in sandals, I want one in a shoe, almost like a runner’s shoe. The next one is just your average run of the mill tribal sun. I like this because of the fact that it’s at every shop and there’s a ton of them. The spot that I would get it on is my lower calf, right above my ankle. The one that I’m leaning towards is the foot, becuase of the fact that it’s going to be the only one that I know of.

You like one tattoo because nobody else has it and the other one because it’s everywhere? Rethink your motivation for getting a tattoo, realize you have more than two choices. The only question is where would I find a picture of a more modern foot, not the one in the sandal. I really want to get this one before the end of the year, so I can have my fifteen minutes of fame. This would really help me out.

You are going to have this for the rest of your life. It’s neither advantageous nor wise to rush it. Are 15 minutes of fame worth a lifetime of regret or an assload of money for laser removal? If I can’t find a good picture of one, about how much woulf it cost to have one custom drawn? Also, how much would it cost, I want it to be small, this way it looks tastful.

More likely, it will look like a cheap temporary tattoo, applied in the spur of the moment. Larger tattoos give you the possibility to adapt them to your body. A skilled tattoo artist will draw a custom design for you. Cost should be your least concern, you can always save up. Cheap tattoos look cheap. Seriously, you need to put more thought into this. Nina — C’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot. Louis Pasteur http://www.chaotropic.net

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jay wrote… The only problem is that everyone that I see isn’t good engough for my tattoo, I keep coming across the ones in sandals, I want one in a shoe, almost like a runner’s shoe. The next one is just your average run of the mill tribal sun. I like this because of the fact that it’s at every shop and there’s a ton of them. The spot that I would get it on is my lower calf, right above my ankle. The one that I’m leaning towards is the foot, becuase of the fact that it’s going to be the only one that I know of. You like one tattoo because nobody else has it and the other one because it’s everywhere? Rethink your motivation for getting a tattoo, realize you have more than two choices. The only question is where would I find a picture of a more modern foot, not the one in the sandal. I really want to get this one before the end of the year, so I can have my fifteen minutes of fame. This would really help me out. You are going to have this for the rest of your life. It’s neither advantageous nor wise to rush it. Are 15 minutes of fame worth a lifetime of regret or an assload of money for laser removal? If I can’t find a good picture of one, about how much woulf it cost to have one custom drawn? Also, how much would it cost, I want it to be small, this way it looks tastful. More likely, it will look like a cheap temporary tattoo, applied in the spur of the moment. Larger tattoos give you the possibility to adapt them to your body. A skilled tattoo artist will draw a custom design for you. Cost should be your least concern, you can always save up. Cheap tattoos look cheap. Seriously, you need to put more thought into this. Nina

What I ment to say is that, I want one not just because of the fact that everyone is getting one, I want one so I can express myself. I though about it long and hard and I really want to get one.

Response:

What I ment to say is that, I want one not just because of the fact that everyone is getting one, I want one so I can express myself. I though about it long and hard and I really want to get one.

How long? . Take a look at what’s possible in tattoo art by perusing the links on lish’s list: http://compunction.dyndns.org/tattoos.html Then see if you still want an itty bitty thing. Nina — C’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot. Louis Pasteur http://www.chaotropic.net

Response:

What I ment to say is that, I want one not just because of the fact that everyone is getting one, I want one so I can express myself. I though about it long and hard and I really want to get one.

i just don’t understand. why do you write stuff like this then (initial post): Jay: "The next one is just your average run of the mill tribal sun. I like this because of the fact that it’s at every shop and there’s a ton of them [snip] I really want to get this one before the end of the year, so I can have my fifteen minutes of fame." anyways just find a good artist (take a look at the portfolios), ask him/her to draw it up (if she/he can’t draw he/she sucks anyways) and if you like it get it tattooed. price? well unless you walk outside afterwards to get hit by a bus it generally is very cheap is you spread it out over your possible lifespan.

Response:

custom drawn? Also, how much would it cost, I want it to be small, this way it looks tastful. Thanks alot.

Actually, of the people I meet who regret some of their tattoos, a very popular complaint is that they wish they had gotten the tat bigger. This all depends on the size of your body and arms, etc. But you should fit the tattoo to YOUR body size. I dinky little Micky’s bee on a huge football player’s arm looks a bit funny. Getting the opinions of your friends and family can certainly help you crystalize your decision. Slick

Response:

Ok, I see that some people are extremely confused with what I was trying to say. Let me see if I can try and clear up what I was trying to say. First off, I want to thank Curt for giving me those links to the pictures of what I was looking for. I looked through the pictures of the tribal suns and thought to myself how unorginial that getting one would be. It’s too common to see a tribal tattoo today. Almost too common to see almost every tough guy in the world either getting a tribal or something else that looks tough. I then looked at the track feet and discovered that the one I picked first, should have been the one I went with all along. The runner’s foot, which is going to be my choice, doesn’t look as good with a more modern shoe. However, it does look good in a sandal, which is going to be my choice. Now, to clear up my thing to Nina and everything else, the size thing. The location that I want to get my tattoo is either on my calf or right above my ankle, but I’m leaning more toward my calf. I want it to be big enough so that when people see it, this way when they see it they don’t have to ask me what it is. So, my next question is if I get in above my ankle, how big, in inches, should it be. If I get it on my calf, which is what I’m leaning towards more, how big should it be. Should I make it about six inches or go a little bigger. Your help is appereated to me in doing this right. Thank you and I’m sorry for being so confusing to you all.

Response:

[snip] those links to the pictures of what I was looking for. [snip]

Cool. [snip]looked at the track feet and discovered that the one I picked first, should have been the one I went with all along. [snip] sandal, which is going to be my choice. [snip]So, my next question is if I get in above my ankle, how big, in inches,

You could have it start on the outside of your ankle and extend to the midpoint at the back of your calf. What, about four or five inches? But, again, and this is only my preference, if you’re getting it near your ankle I’d go with wing only. should it be. If I get it on my calf, which is what I’m leaning towards more, how big should it be. Should I make it about six inches or go a little bigger.

http://wwwehs.lkwash.wednet.edu/wings.jpg The only sandal I could find during a brief Google search, but an illustrated version of the sandal and wings would rock, imo. Best of luck in choosing the right artist and size for you, but I agree with any who prefer a larger image. [snip] Thank you and I’m sorry for being so confusing to you all.

No apology necessary, Jay. Grist for the mill. I’m not the only RAB patron who loves drama. Welcome to the hutch. Please report back. And: http://rabbithole.org/ — Curt http://curt_james.livejournal.com/ — Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Response:

the tribal suns and thought to myself how unorginial that getting one would be.

*** You DID say you liked it because you see them in all the shops, did you not? — k e i t h a l e x a n d e r http://www.nootrope.net http://www.modernamerican.com aim: nootrope9 vote – - e n d t r a n s m i s s i o n – -

Response:

J I want it to be small, this way it looks tastful. then i certainly can’t help you. http://tinyurl.com/ail9

Good thing you contributed unhelpfully, then.

Response:

The only sandal I could find during a brief Google search, but an illustrated version of the sandal and wings would rock, imo.

yes. that would be hermes, the herald of the olympian gods, the god of the travelers, which is very fitting to what you seek. sometimes depicted with sandals or boots with wings. more info about hermes: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hermes.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes and for images: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&newwindow=1&s…

Response:

the tribal suns and thought to myself how unorginial that getting one would be. *** You DID say you liked it because you see them in all the shops, did you not?

yeah which was actually that what made it all confusing. and about size it’s quite simple: go big or go home. seriously. so many people are bummed out because they wanted it small. you’re not collecting stamps but tattoos.

Response:

Jay wrote… Now, to clear up my thing to Nina and everything else, the size thing. The location that I want to get my tattoo is either on my calf or right above my ankle, but I’m leaning more toward my calf. I want it to be big enough so that when people see it, this way when they see it they don’t have to ask me what it is.

*g* that’s kind of the opposite of "I want it small so it looks tasteful" . So, now that we’ve established that we all agreed from the start: it’s difficult to come up with a size recommendation. It depends on your leg as much as on the actual design. Personally, I’d take my ideas to a skilled artist, and have them design the piece on my leg. I could imagine the side of the upper calf as a good spot for such a design. With that one idea, you still have a plethora of choices for the actual tattoo, you don’t have bring a finished design that’s going to be transferred 1:1. If you like the look of blackwork ("tribal") design, you could have the piece done in that style, or maybe as a biomechanical piece (think the Alien design by H.R. Giger), in color, in black&white, in black&grey, even white only. Find an artist whose style you like (and who does quality work), and let them have at it. If you tell us where you are, maybe someone can give you a recommendation. Nina — C’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot. Louis Pasteur http://www.chaotropic.net

Response:

J I want it to be small, this way it looks tastful. then i certainly can’t help you. http://tinyurl.com/ail9

JM Good thing you contributed unhelpfully, then. perhaps, but at least i didn’t do so anonymously. lish "i know she’s a pretty good read, but 40.1% / 30 RANA 125 / 68

Response:

J pictures of what I was looking for. I looked through the pictures of J the tribal suns and thought to myself how unorginial that getting one J would be. It’s too common to see a tribal tattoo today. Almost too J common to see almost every tough guy in the world either getting a check this out: if you do something because it’s trendy OR if you DON’T do something because it’s trendy, it’s the same thing. you’re letting society make your choices. if you like the fucking blackwork suns, get one. if you don’t like them, don’t get one. but don’t balance your decision on commonality, because then your choice will be a farce. lish "well i, i might be wrong, 40.1% / 30 RANA 125 / 68

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jay wrote… Now, to clear up my thing to Nina and everything else, the size thing. The location that I want to get my tattoo is either on my calf or right above my ankle, but I’m leaning more toward my calf. I want it to be big enough so that when people see it, this way when they see it they don’t have to ask me what it is. *g* that’s kind of the opposite of "I want it small so it looks tasteful" . So, now that we’ve established that we all agreed from the start: it’s difficult to come up with a size recommendation. It depends on your leg as much as on the actual design. Personally, I’d take my ideas to a skilled artist, and have them design the piece on my leg. I could imagine the side of the upper calf as a good spot for such a design.

Whatever design you come up with Jay, bring it to a copy place or scan it, and then make several enlargements or shrinkages, beyond what you think is the correct size now. Placing these on your leg will give you a better idea of what size you should go with. And ask your friends for their opinion too. Slick

Response:

Whatever design you come up with Jay, bring it to a copy place or scan it, and then make several enlargements or shrinkages, beyond what you think is the correct size now. Placing these on your leg will give you a better idea of what size you should go with. And ask your friends for their opinion too.

Fine for getting a better idea before ever setting foot in a tattoo shop. If, however, a tattoo ‘artist’ tells you to bring a finished design, adjusted to the proper size, like Slick does in his ads, *run*. A skilled artist will be able to draw the design on you, in different sizes if need be, which will give you a much better idea. Designs on paper can’t take the shape of your leg into account. Nina — C’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot. Louis Pasteur http://www.chaotropic.net

Response:

about size it’s quite simple: go big or go home.

*** Not really. What was lame was the "I want it small so it’s tasteful." Size has naught to do with content. — k e i t h a l e x a n d e r http://www.nootrope.net http://www.modernamerican.com aim: nootrope9 vote – - e n d t r a n s m i s s i o n – -

Response:

(steakzombies) coughed and sputtered, and managed to choke out these words: and about size it’s quite simple: go big or go home.

again: http://www.bmezine.com/tattoo/A40726/high/superman0.jpg david — "Being lectured by the President on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country." -John Kerry

Response:

again: http://www.bmezine.com/tattoo/A40726/high/superman0.jpg

I love that tattoo. That is what you call "aspirational." — vanity domain: www.mssunlight.co.uk To reply replaces prunes with com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Whatever design you come up with Jay, bring it to a copy place or scan it, and then make several enlargements or shrinkages, beyond what you think is the correct size now. Placing these on your leg will give you a better idea of what size you should go with. And ask your friends for their opinion too. Fine for getting a better idea before ever setting foot in a tattoo shop. If, however, a tattoo ‘artist’ tells you to bring a finished design, adjusted to the proper size, like Slick does in his ads, *run*. A skilled artist will be able to draw the design on you, in different sizes if need be, which will give you a much better idea. Designs on paper can’t take the shape of your leg into account.

God, I love it when you get snappy with me! lol! To clarify, I certainly do shitloads of original designs, many drawn on the skin directly beforehand ala Pinky Yun. However, I most certainly DO encourage people to do their own research before i haul all my equipment to their place, even if it’s only reference material to be modified and combined into something completely new and original. I don’t expect a vet to understand how a tattoo customer can use up hours of an tattooists time, and then not even get the tattoo. That’s why many artists will charge you per hour for draw/sketch/design time…and they really should. Life would be so much easier if people knew what they wanted, eh? So when is the Nina Baltes calendar coming out? I’d obviously prefer a bikini calendar, but if you insist on chopping up a different animal each month, so be it. Slick

Response: