Question:

I hope someone can help me here, you guys seem to be pretty helpful when people don’t ask dumb ass questions.  I took a class last year in permanent make up, basic body piercing, and small tattoos.  I really would like to get a tattoo and piercing apprenticeship and re-learn everything the right way.  The class I had was really informative, and I did learn a lot, but it was just so rushed, and nowhere near the quality of an apprenticeship.  My question is, if I go in to talk to someone about getting and apprenticeship, are they going to look at me like I’m an idiot for even taking the class?  I mean, I know how it’s looked at as pretty bad to be tattooing people and not learning the right way, so I’m a little nervous about asking someone to teach me since I already did things kind of half assed.  Just let me know your thoughts on all that.  Thanks!

Response:

I hope someone can help me here, you guys seem to be pretty helpful when people don’t ask dumb ass questions.  I took a class last year in permanent make up, basic body piercing, and small tattoos.  I really would like to get a tattoo and piercing apprenticeship and re-learn everything the right way.  The class I had was really informative, and I did learn a lot, but it was just so rushed, and nowhere near the quality of an apprenticeship.  My question is, if I go in to talk to someone about getting and apprenticeship, are they going to look at me like I’m an idiot for even taking the class?

They probably will… But the good news is you know it was not the brightest move and if you modestly tell them that you know this they will likely not sweat it. Generally by the time you get to the point where you can get an artist to apprentice you there will be some relationship between the two of you so the likelyhood f that past class being an issue is small… The bigger problem is going to be breaking your bad habits and relearning proper procedure. But this is an issue anytime you are re-learning anything. — JSin Lost Generation Custom Tattoo To reply Kill the idiot

Response:

So there’s no way that what I already know can help me?

Response:

So there’s no way that what I already know can help me?

I didn’t take the classes that you did and have no Idea what they covered. In general if you think they were compete, accurate, and what have you then you would not be asking about apprenticeship. The fact that you are   and you are embarassed and questioning what a shop is going to say I would guess they were inadequet. It is kinda like learning to become an electrician by taking a weekend seminar. Both piercing and Tattooing frequently are 2 year apprenticeships. Same as for most trades. Just out of curiousity how long was the class and how much time did they spend on infection control?? — JSin Lost Generation Custom Tattoo To reply Kill the idiot

Response:

<snipI took a class last year in permanent make up, basic body piercing, and small tattoos. <snip if I go in to talk to

Cool. Information is fun. Sometimes it’s even useful. someone about getting and apprenticeship, are they going to look at me like I’m an idiot for even taking the class?<snip

Well, I recommend finding out the old fashioned way. Walk into a shop, tell your tale, wait for a response. Btw, who offered the class? What were some of the activities? I’m a little nervous about asking someone to teach me since I already did things kind of half assed.  <snip

Go to a shop. Talk with an artist. Build rapport. Again, tell your tale. If you have any social skills at all and don’t present yourself in some obnoxiously self-important manner, I imagine you’ll be well received. Best of luck. — Curt http://iam.bmezine.com/?curt http://www.curtjames.com/

Response:

Hi everyone!  I was also looking into taking a permanent make up class.  I actually found a site online for a woman who teaches in Georgia (kind of far from me in Delaware) but she also offers a piercing class.  I’ve e-mailed tons of people who have taken the class and all of the responses were great, but having never been an apprentice, I have no idea what would be missing from the courses. Anyone who might know something about classes or has maybe taken these classes, I’d love more info.  The site is: www.eyerly.com   Thanks!

Response:

Also, I’m not looking to do this as a carrer…I do have a full time job, but I’m looking for something to do more as a creative outlet. Just to make everything clear.

Response:

Also, I’m not looking to do this as a carrer…I do have a full time job, but I’m looking for something to do more as a creative outlet.

Find something different than people to inflict your creativity upon. Nina — C’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot.                             Louis Pasteur http://www.chaotropic.net

Response:

I might be looking in the wrong places, but I haven’t been able to find anything more substantial than a class like this (70 hours) for permanent make up.  Are you saying that none of these classes will train me well enough to do permanent make up on people and that no matter how good the class is I’ll just be "inflicting" my creativity on people?  I don’t think that’s a very fair judgement unless you took the class or know someone who has and is not doing well. Like I said before, everyone I’ve asked about the class who actually took it is doing well now, and personally, I think that says a lot for the class.  I’m not trying to do huge backpieces or intricate sleves, and like I stated, I don’t need a full time income from this.  I would love to hear from someone with some firsthand experience either in permanent make up or classes like this.  Thanks!

Response:

I might be looking in the wrong places, but I haven’t been able to find anything more substantial than a class like this (70 hours) for permanent make up.  Are you saying that none of these classes will train me well enough to do permanent make up on people and that no matter how good the class is I’ll just be "inflicting" my creativity on people?

70 hours? I had over 70 hours training in my current job just learning the basic data entry skills, and no-one has ever had to walk around with a dodgy smudge on their face because I mis-typed.  Let’s take this out of bodyart and into beauty; to become a qualified beauty therapist or hairdresser here at the local college in Cardiff you’re talking 2-3 years full-time study. From what I’ve read about permanent cosmetics, many people have had very positive experiences with them — many others have had negative.  I don’t like the look personally, but that’s just me.

Response:

I might be looking in the wrong places, but I haven’t been able to find anything more substantial than a class like this (70 hours) for permanent make up.

I know of a tattoo artist in NH who also does permanent makeup. She tattooed for many many years before going into it; she then helped draft the laws pertaining to permanent makeup in NH. Among the requirements: the person should already have some tattoo art experience, and so understand the mechanics and techniques of tattooing. I also know of another tattoo artist (a woman) who went to this particular tattoo artist for training permanent makeup training. She APPRENTICED with her, for many months – despite also having been an experienced tattoo artist. Do you get my point? Susan

Response:

a  I’m not trying to do huge backpieces or intricate sleves, and like I         yeah, just faces. that’s far less readily visible than a back. lish                                          "i have holes poked in me 39.3% / 30                                                RANA 125 / 68

Response:

Are you saying that none of these classes will train me well enough to do permanent make up on people and that no matter how good the class is I’ll just be "inflicting" my creativity on people?  

Yes. Obviously. Nina — C’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot.                             Louis Pasteur http://www.chaotropic.net

Response:

Also, I’m not looking to do this as a carrer…I do have a full time job, but I’m looking for something to do more as a creative outlet. Just to make everything clear.

Lynn Missouri

Response:

Also, I’m not looking to do this as a carrer…I do have a full time job, but I’m looking for something to do more as a creative outlet. Just to make everything clear.

Have you seen the way some women wear lip liner?  It’s like they have no clue where the hell their lips end. — Suzy Smith Landslide: http://mutteringfool.com FBG: http://fatbottomedgirls.net You don’t like the sound of the truth, coming from my mouth…

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SS Have you seen the way some women wear lip liner?  It’s like they have no SS clue where the hell their lips end.         cora gets a boner when women eyeline their entire eye.         no, it’s true. i’ve seen proof. lish                                          "i have holes poked in me 39.3% / 30                                                RANA 125 / 68

Response:

SS Have you seen the way some women wear lip liner?  It’s like they have no SS clue where the hell their lips end.        cora gets a boner when women eyeline their entire eye.        no, it’s true. i’ve seen proof.

kladf;lkdflkjsdf AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH cora

Response:

cora gets a boner when women eyeline their entire eye.

*snarf* I did that for years – soon after I first saw Chrissy Hynde.  I also had a Chrissy Hynde haircut for a while, too. I drew the line at militant-vegan-peta-animal-rights, though.     Susan     http://scamptattoo.com

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cora gets a boner when women eyeline their entire eye. no, it’s true. i’ve seen proof.

Woo.  I had mine fully eyelined in glitter last night, does that work?

Response:

Question:

Meredith I too am not satisfied with my tattoo which is supposed to be my areola.

I have had skin grafts which duplicate the nipples and areolas and give them substance and depth.  I was intending to have them tattooed darker but find that they seem fairly OK for now.  How do you go about choosing a colour when you haven’t an original to go by? Any ideas? Andee

Response:

     Interesting question Andee. I suppose that is where your tattoo artist or plastic surgeon would come in handy, if you wanted to leave it up to them. On the other hand you could do like women that want a certain hairstyle and bring a picture of the hairstyle to the stylist. I suppose you could browse through some photos and pick a color you liked. Now where you get the photos is another question entirely. But, I am sure one could use their imagination for that. Just my thoughts. ~Pam~

Response:

Well, you are indeed a survivor, in the greatest sense of the word…lookat all you have accomplished at the same time! I want to answer the "falling down" part of your post as the same thing happened to me…it is by no means a graceful slideto the floor, but a very sudden, hard fall…like you were knocked down or pushed…and started a few weeks before the end of radiation.  As usual, I asked the mds and they got this" get me away from this crazy woman" look in their eyes….I finally attribute it to extreme fatigue (so extreme there really isn’t any word for it…and if you ignore the ist symptoms that you’ve had enough…down you go! I have since heard from other women who become unstable, clumsy, and fall down (HARD) just like you and I did. Be sure to mention it toyourMD,though…and do heed yourbody’s signal that you’ve done enough for the day! Rosemary

Response:

Hello Meredith, You have overcome a lot. Best wishes to you and  to your husband with the bar exam. I teach kindergarten, and realized 17 years ago, with diagnosis, that having something so wonderfully purposeful to do was very, very good for me. Two parts of your post caught my attention.  The first was about the depression.  Have just come through a time when our daughter struggled with postpartum and know from her experience that it can make a horribly difficult time.  You don’t say if the medications have helped.  I surely hope so.  The weight gain is something that you can tackle a bit later. The second part of the post that caught me was the part about being clumsy and falling.  I also had a problem with that, but haven’t heard anyone but my Dr. address it before now.  He said (all those years ago) that it was probably from peripheral nerve damage and would gradually get better.  It has, but I am still careful on uneven ground, ice, etc. because I think I don’t have great balance anymore.  (It’s a fair trade—I’m still here!)  I hope that your problem with balance is merely a residual effect of the chemo too. Take care, Meredith.  Let us know how the bar exam goes! Barb

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My BC Friends, It has been two years since my mastectomy for DCIS.  I am the woman attorney in Oregon who sat for the Oregon bar exam the two days before the surgery (and failed the exam, natch). I went through a horrible last year, lots of depression.  It came on when I went in for my one year mammogram and they thought they saw something on the real side.  Turned out six months later it was nothing, but it sent me down the dark hole.  I was on Prozac for about nine months, then Wellbutrin. Gained 50 pounds. I started feeling better after the new year and stopped the anti-depressants.  I just started exercising again this past month (30 minute video every morning really makes a difference).  My husband is graduating from law school in 6 weeks and we are sitting together for the Washington bar.  Fresh starts. I had more liposuction last summer through Kaiser, my insurer since I started working for a small, Portland family law firm in August, 1999.  I now have a waist and my reconstructed breast is pretty close to the size of the real one.  I am now having tattoo repair on my reconstructed breast. The doc’s assistant tattooed the aereola orange.  My real side is pale pink. I have red hair and freckles.  After one retattoo, it looks a hell of a lot better.  Unfortunately, I can’t have it laser removed because the doc used titanium oxide white, which turns black when laser hits it.  I can’t make it look JUST like the real one because it won’t be translucent.  For a good match, I will have to tattoo the real side. You know the feeling, "I’d just like my old body back"? After two years, I have decided that while I like the tight tummy, I would now not choose TRAM flap reconstruction.  I am not strong anymore, can’t lift anything, and yard work is a bitch.  It kills my back muscles, which have to do the work of what was taken for the new boob. We started a breast cancer support group with Oregon Women Lawyers.  We meet once a month.  There are about 10 of us, but only about six come regularly. One who doesn’t come is an older judge, who recently had a stroke.  One who does come now has two brain tumors.  She fell recently and the frontal lobe tumor was hurt and is now swollen, causing the left side of her body to be numb.  She came with a walker yesterday.  It hurts me to see her, knowing she is terminal, because I feel so helpless. The lesson of cancer:  we only thought we had control before the cancer. People say, "I have no control."  Well, we never did, we just thought we did.  I am trying to slow down, take life each day as it comes.  I have fallen down hard three times since my mastectomy.  I have no idea why. The first time, last August, I fell in the parking lot of the light rail station where I park.  I damaged two nice rings which cost me $400 to have repaired. The next time I fell trying to step up the curb when I was jay walking downtown and landed on my left knee hurting it badly.  This past month, jay walking again, I fell in the street downtown and hit my left rib under my real breast on the edge of the curb, breaking the rib.  Two weeks after I fell, when the pain subsided some, I realized I chipped a piece of bone off my left knee cap.  Now kneeling on that knee doesn’t work well for me anymore.  I get a shooting pain to remind it has a floating piece of bone in there. So, slow down everything.  Don’t jay walk.  Watch where I am going.  My mother has MS, and I worry these falls could be MS.  Well, if I do, I do. Again, we only have control over the attitude. Catharine, I wish you all the love I can send you.  This is the best place, this support group.  Because of all of you, I have not felt alone with my cancer. Blessings to all of you, mer Meredith McKell Graff Beaverton, OR

Response:

Meredith I too am not satisfied with my tattoo which is supposed to be my areola. ( I have saline implant instead of TRAM flap). I have thought of going to a tattoo artist to get them both "matched up". But when I have mentioned it to my husband, he does not relish the idea. I suppose he considers them both real and does not feel comfortable with me exposing what he thinks of as his personal playground to the big burly tattooed guy that put a rose on my shoulder. I suppose I should be glad that he doesn’t think of "it" the way I do. What I am trying to say is that I understand the feeling, "I’d just like my old body back"? That is what I find so wonderful about this group, no matter what strange thought  (" I lived through having cancer, but I want to look like I never had it") that I have had sooner or later someone else mentions a similar thought and I don’t feel so crazy. ~Pam~

Response:

Mer and Pam agreed that: I too am not satisfied with my tattoo which is supposed to be my areola.

When I had my tatoo done, the plastic surgeon said that it would fade and eventually match the real one.  It’s been six months,now and the new one still looks like a pepperoni (who said that…someone here and it’s sure appropriate!).  Perhaps it’ll take a few years to fade enough. I still think that I’m glad that I had it done.  It serves to complete the job.  I went through all the physical trauma of the tram flap, it doesn’t seem right to leave it sitting there looking like a blank lump.  The only person besides myself who will ever see it is my husband and he hasn’t said the word boo about it. Glad to see you Mer, and good luck on passing the bar!  New beginning are good. Take care. …lisa

Response:

ladies can i ask, simply because i have not done the tattoo yet or the texture stuff either, would it really be better to just go to a tattoo place? i laughed at my 22 yr old daughter when she came home one day and told me her tattoo artist would do me a nipple for 35 dollars! i really thought she was joking with me even though she seemed serious (she has two small tattoos) the color problem you mentioned is what made me wonder, please email me, cuz i am going fishing for the week and may not be able to find this thread! becky

Response:

Becky I think that would be a great idea. As I said I am not really satisfied with mine. My plastic surgeon does a few tattoos a week. A "good" tattoo artist does them all day long. But check into the tattoo artist’s reputation. Be sure to check that all his instruments are sterilized by autoclave. You can tell that the bag he opens with the instruments in it have run through an autoclave by the change of color of the stripes on the bag. They should change from a pale color to dark brown. You could at least check it out. Hang around and see his work and decide from there. Then be sure and follow his instructions for care of the tattoo carefully. If anything doesn’t seem right go back and let him take a look. Some people may disagree with me. I am sure many plastic surgeons ( mine included) can do great tattoos, but it just depends on what you want and expect. Just something to consider. Hope this helps. ~Pam~

Response:

My BC Friends, It has been two years since my mastectomy for DCIS.  I am the woman attorney in Oregon who sat for the Oregon bar exam the two days before the surgery (and failed the exam, natch). I went through a horrible last year, lots of depression.  It came on when I went in for my one year mammogram and they thought they saw something on the real side.  Turned out six months later it was nothing, but it sent me down the dark hole.  I was on Prozac for about nine months, then Wellbutrin. Gained 50 pounds. I started feeling better after the new year and stopped the anti-depressants.  I just started exercising again this past month (30 minute video every morning really makes a difference).  My husband is graduating from law school in 6 weeks and we are sitting together for the Washington bar.  Fresh starts. I had more liposuction last summer through Kaiser, my insurer since I started working for a small, Portland family law firm in August, 1999.  I now have a waist and my reconstructed breast is pretty close to the size of the real one.  I am now having tattoo repair on my reconstructed breast. The doc’s assistant tattooed the aereola orange.  My real side is pale pink. I have red hair and freckles.  After one retattoo, it looks a hell of a lot better.  Unfortunately, I can’t have it laser removed because the doc used titanium oxide white, which turns black when laser hits it.  I can’t make it look JUST like the real one because it won’t be translucent.  For a good match, I will have to tattoo the real side. You know the feeling, "I’d just like my old body back"? After two years, I have decided that while I like the tight tummy, I would now not choose TRAM flap reconstruction.  I am not strong anymore, can’t lift anything, and yard work is a bitch.  It kills my back muscles, which have to do the work of what was taken for the new boob. We started a breast cancer support group with Oregon Women Lawyers.  We meet once a month.  There are about 10 of us, but only about six come regularly. One who doesn’t come is an older judge, who recently had a stroke.  One who does come now has two brain tumors.  She fell recently and the frontal lobe tumor was hurt and is now swollen, causing the left side of her body to be numb.  She came with a walker yesterday.  It hurts me to see her, knowing she is terminal, because I feel so helpless. The lesson of cancer:  we only thought we had control before the cancer. People say, "I have no control."  Well, we never did, we just thought we did.  I am trying to slow down, take life each day as it comes.  I have fallen down hard three times since my mastectomy.  I have no idea why.  The first time, last August, I fell in the parking lot of the light rail station where I park.  I damaged two nice rings which cost me $400 to have repaired. The next time I fell trying to step up the curb when I was jay walking downtown and landed on my left knee hurting it badly.  This past month, jay walking again, I fell in the street downtown and hit my left rib under my real breast on the edge of the curb, breaking the rib.  Two weeks after I fell, when the pain subsided some, I realized I chipped a piece of bone off my left knee cap.  Now kneeling on that knee doesn’t work well for me anymore.  I get a shooting pain to remind it has a floating piece of bone in there. So, slow down everything.  Don’t jay walk.  Watch where I am going.  My mother has MS, and I worry these falls could be MS.  Well, if I do, I do. Again, we only have control over the attitude. Catharine, I wish you all the love I can send you.  This is the best place, this support group.  Because of all of you, I have not felt alone with my cancer. Blessings to all of you, mer Meredith McKell Graff Beaverton, OR

Response:

Question:

   anywhere from twenty minutes to an hour depending on the artist. 29.9% / 32

Strike me down with a wet kipper!  Lish!  Hey, great ter see you Best wiv it Dick

Response:

DE Strike me down with a wet kipper!  Lish!  Hey, great ter see you         goddamnit. the only part of your message i could understand was my own name. lish 29.9% / 32

Response:

DE Strike me down with a wet kipper!  Lish!  Hey, great ter see you    goddamnit. the only part of your message i could understand    was my  own name.    lish

Oh, Jesus! here we go again.  Translation follows:         Oh, I am truly amazed!  Lish!  How wonderful that you are here …& you *swore* at me.  I’m going to cry now. /dick stands in the corner & quivers his lower lip

Response:

   goddamnit. the only part of your message i could understand    was my  own name.

DE Oh, Jesus! here we go again.  Translation follows: DE  Oh, I am truly amazed!  Lish!  How wonderful that you are here         oh. uh, hey dick. DE …& you *swore* at me.  I’m going to cry now. DE /dick stands in the corner & quivers his lower lip         english pansy. lish 29.9% / 32

Response:

Question:

What would be the most likely result of a person using X and getting a tattoo? (No, I’m not thinking about trying it.) A young lady in my art lab asked me a couple of tattoo questions today – she wants to get a butterfly on her hip, and wanted to know if it would hurt less if she "took something first." I immediately started with the no-aspirin, no-alcohol recommendations – and she stopped me. "No, I meant ecstacy or something." And having minimal experience with X (I don’t get along with club kids and ravers…), I couldn’t tell her anything but "No, that’d be bad. You should be as sober as possible during the process." But I wasn’t sure if it would increase blood loss (but then I’m paranoid about that as an "easy bleeder"), or affect the hormonal changes that occur during the tattooing process.

Response:

What would be the most likely result of a person using X and getting a tattoo? (No, I’m not thinking about trying it.) A young lady in my art lab asked me a couple of tattoo questions today – she wants to get a butterfly on her hip, and wanted to know if it would hurt less if she "took something first." I immediately started with the no-aspirin, no-alcohol recommendations – and she stopped me. "No, I meant ecstacy or something." And having minimal experience with X (I don’t get along with club kids and ravers…), I couldn’t tell her anything but "No, that’d be bad. You should be as sober as possible during the process." But I wasn’t sure if it would increase blood loss (but then I’m paranoid about that as an "easy bleeder"), or affect the hormonal changes that occur during the tattooing process.

Think of X’s effect on the body as very similar to methamphetamine.   It dialates blood vessles, accelerates heartrate and complicates shock. I wouldnt do it. —–yttrx

Response:

What would be the most likely result of a person using X and getting a tattoo?

<snip I suppose part of it would depend on whether she took pure MDMA, or some sort of bunk e.  Most of the dumbshits who do it can’t tell the difference.   While the article seems to be mostly pro-e, this link might be of some help: http://www.ecstasy.org/books/e4x/e4x.ch.06.html That is, of course, assuming we are talking about MDMA and not the other crap being passed off as "ecstasy." — sarahmonster change 0 to o to reply

Response:

Althoug I do not encourage it, I have tattooed people on ecstacy and they had no problems and said they enjoyed the experience. I don’t think it dulls the pain, it just makes it an "experience" for some people

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What would be the most likely result of a person using X and getting a tattoo? (No, I’m not thinking about trying it.) A young lady in my art lab asked me a couple of tattoo questions today – she wants to get a butterfly on her hip, and wanted to know if it would hurt less if she "took something first." I immediately started with the no-aspirin, no-alcohol recommendations – and she stopped me. "No, I meant ecstacy or something." And having minimal experience with X (I don’t get along with club kids and ravers…), I couldn’t tell her anything but "No, that’d be bad. You should be as sober as possible during the process." But I wasn’t sure if it would increase blood loss (but then I’m paranoid about that as an "easy bleeder"), or affect the hormonal changes that occur during the tattooing process.

Response:

(I don’t get along with club kids and ravers…)

this reminds me of a line from a local punk band Sister Mary Rotten Crotch.  They have  a song that goes: "club a club kid for rock and roll techno music will steal your soul" (side note, i like a lot of drum ‘n  bass and breakbeat, but I can’t really stand clubkids.) "When you have to shoot, shoot! Don’t Talk!"           -Tuco in _The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly_

Response:

My response will not be very popular, but I don’t care. From the artists point of view: Tattooing a living canvas is difficult enough without that canvas being "Jacked up" on what ever is the flavor of the week pill. I have had a few problems with customers on drugs (I didn’t know about untill I started the tattoo). Any way what is wrong with experiencing the real tattoo "Experience"? Part of getting the tattoo is being present for the tattoo. Also people who dose them selves up with medication or "experience" drugs are usually small tattoos. They can turn a 15 minute tattoo into an hour of hell for an artist. I don’t have a problem with people who are getting hours of work in difficult places taking something to help them sit better, but they are not usually a problem. Tell her the best thing to do is to eat a little before hand and bring a soda or juice to sip on during the tattoo. During the tattoo if she relaxes she will have an easier time and will move less than if she tries to hold herself rigid and still. Good luck with the tattoo,         Misha # – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What would be the most likely result of a person using X and getting a tattoo? (No, I’m not thinking about trying it.) A young lady in my art lab asked me a couple of tattoo questions today – she wants to get a butterfly on her hip, and wanted to know if it would hurt less if she "took something first." I immediately started with the no-aspirin, no-alcohol recommendations – and she stopped me. "No, I meant ecstacy or something." And having minimal experience with X (I don’t get along with club kids and ravers…), I couldn’t tell her anything but "No, that’d be bad. You should be as sober as possible during the process." But I wasn’t sure if it would increase blood loss (but then I’m paranoid about that as an "easy bleeder"), or affect the hormonal changes that occur during the tattooing process.

Response:

What would be the most likely result of a person using X and getting a tattoo?

I think that it would probably hurt worse. E is a drug that increases all your sensations. When on E you get all touchy and feely because it feels good to be in contact with someone else. Beside the fact (like people posted before) that it thins your blood and also probably contains some methamphetamine or cocaine that will make you be jumpy and not want to sit in a tattooist’s chair for any long period of time. Miles — "It’s only fair to warn that I was born with a set of horns, and metaphors attached to my damn umbilical cord." -Slim Shady

Response:

Think of X’s effect on the body as very similar to methamphetamine.

that’s very probable, as e = mdma = methylenedioxy-n-*methamphetamine*. nina2 — <p0okala we kill every child in the world so that no one can hurt them. we scoop out our eyes, sew our mouths shut and rupture our eardrums so that nothing offends. and then we all die. nina2 [tm] | rana-17(+5) | http://home.balcab.ch/nis

Response:

What would be the most likely result of a person using X and getting a tattoo? I think that it would probably hurt worse. E is a drug that increases all your sensations.

i’d guess the same, yes. probably contains some methamphetamine or cocaine

as posted above, mdma (ecstasy) is a kind of methamphetamine. cocaine is afaik something else entirely. & if we’re talking pure mdma, it doesn’t "contain" anything anyway. http://www.erowid.org for enlightenment that will make you be jumpy

no. e will not "make" you anything unless you *want* it to make you that way, and steer your trip in that particular direction. e can work totally different depending on the environment and the mindset of the person who takes it. you can use e to rave, but you can also use it to meditate. nina2 — <p0okala we kill every child in the world so that no one can hurt them. we scoop out our eyes, sew our mouths shut and rupture our eardrums so that nothing offends. and then we all die. nina2 [tm] | rana-17(+5) | http://home.balcab.ch/nis

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as posted above, mdma (ecstasy) is a kind of methamphetamine. cocaine is afaik something else entirely. & if we’re talking pure mdma, it doesn’t "contain" anything anyway. http://www.erowid.org for enlightenment

When I think of E, I don’t think of pure MDMA. The E pills you get now have lots of other shit in them, including cocaine and heroin. Miles — "It’s only fair to warn that I was born with a set of horns, and metaphors attached to my damn umbilical cord." -Slim Shady

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 I don’t have a problem with people who are getting hours of work in difficult places taking something to help them sit better, but they are not usually a problem.

What do you suggest they take? I have always wondered if people with heavy coverage take any thing when getting "ouchy" places worked on. If so what are these things generally? Do all relaxing type drugs cause your blood to thin? alcohol, marijuana, valium? I am just curious on what an artist thinks of these and if their clients use them. jim

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What do you suggest they take? I have always wondered if people with heavy

If you insist on taking something, take a tranquilizer.         Shannon Death to BME, Long live BME!                   http://www.bmezine.com/

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Although, that’s unusual.  Much more common to have substances like caffeine, ephedrine, or mda in them.

I really didn’t know that. I was just repeating information that I had been told for a while. I used to go to raves a lot before I sobered up. Friends of mine who were deep in the scene told me that shitty E’s might have either coke or heroin in them. But I’m sure they could be wrong. Most of the time people don’t really know what is in the pills they take. Miles — "It’s only fair to warn that I was born with a set of horns, and metaphors attached to my damn umbilical cord." -Slim Shady

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 I don’t have a problem with people who are getting hours of work in difficult places taking something to help them sit better, but they are not usually a problem. What do you suggest they take? I have always wondered if people with heavy coverage take any thing when getting "ouchy" places worked on. If so what are these things generally? Do all relaxing type drugs cause your blood to thin? alcohol, marijuana, valium?

No, they dont all thin your blood.  Aspirin and alchohol (and many anti-coagulants used by people with various heart conditions) do, and theyre pretty common. I’ve said it before and ill say it again; not all drugs are created equal.  The reaction of a person under the influence of some type of substance to being tattooed will be very widely varied, depending on the person, the tattoo and the substance. I know people that dose on moderately potent narcotics (like vicodin) before being tattooed because otherwise they cant sit for more than a few minutes.  Under the influence of vicodin, some of them can sit for hours. But as with everything else, YMMV. —–yttrx

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as posted above, mdma (ecstasy) is a kind of methamphetamine. cocaine is afaik something else entirely. & if we’re talking pure mdma, it doesn’t "contain" anything anyway. http://www.erowid.org for enlightenment When I think of E, I don’t think of pure MDMA.

Then you’re thinking incorrectly.  E is extacy, which is MDMA. The E pills you get now have lots of other shit in them, including cocaine and heroin.

Then they arent "E pills".  Theyre something else entirely. —–yttrx* *who got 2CB instead of E one fateful eve and will never touch anything remotely related to either again

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Then you’re thinking incorrectly.  E is extacy, which is MDMA.

I’m assuming that whoever asked Pilgrim about taking an E before getting a tattoo is talking about E pills not pure MDMA. It is almost impossible to get pure MDMA now a days unless you make it yourself or directly know someone who can make it. Miles — "It’s only fair to warn that I was born with a set of horns, and metaphors attached to my damn umbilical cord." -Slim Shady

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says… I’m assuming that whoever asked Pilgrim about taking an E before getting a tattoo is talking about E pills not pure MDMA. It is almost impossible to get pure MDMA now a days unless you make it yourself or directly know someone who can make it.

If it is actually an "e pill," then it IS pure MDMA.   By your rationale, if someone sells you crushed up ritalin and tells you it’s cocaine, then it can be called cocaine.  You can still snort it, it will still do something to you, but that doesn’t mean it is what someone says it is. — sarahmonster change 0 to o to reply

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I had my chest redone after taking a kolonopin(sp?) or two, and barely felt it, whereas when it was done originally it hurt like hell over my ribs & near my nipples. –Fred Banana – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What do you suggest they take? I have always wondered if people with heavy If you insist on taking something, take a tranquilizer.         Shannon Death to BME, Long live BME!                   http://www.bmezine.com/

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When I think of E, I don’t think of pure MDMA. The E pills you get now have lots of other shit in them, including cocaine and heroin. SNIP <

So does anyone know if heroin would have any bad effects on tattooing? It kills pain, makes you sit still and is pretty available in any major city… I’m just wondering, I know its not a good idea for any number of reasons that don’t concern your ink. –Fred Banana

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B. Pilgrim cyberscribed: What would be the most likely result of a person using X and getting a tattoo?

hmmm…although I’ve done a lot of X in the past, I haven’t touched it for well over a year (nor do I plan on it). IIRC, I would _NEVER_ be able to sit still long enough to get a tattoo if I was xing. hth, — "The past will be present if I dare to forget I’ve got two feet in the future but it’s not here yet" –Dropkick Murphys http://www.bmeworld.com/erica (to email me, remove "munist" from my mailto)

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Jason cyberscribed: For info check: http://www.dancesafe.org or http://www.pillreports.com

also http://www.lycaeum.org and http://www.hyperreal.org — "The past will be present if I dare to forget I’ve got two feet in the future but it’s not here yet" –Dropkick Murphys http://www.bmeworld.com/erica (to email me, remove "munist" from my mailto)

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If it is actually an "e pill," then it IS pure MDMA. By your rationale, if someone sells you crushed up ritalin and tells you it’s cocaine, then it can be called cocaine.  You can still snort it, it will still do something to you, but that doesn’t mean it is what someone says it is.

I was just saying that what is considered to be "E" on the street is not pure MDMA although it is called escatsy. Whatever the chick, who wanted to take it before getting tattooed, got wouldn’t be pure MDMA. So I was assuming she was talking about "E" pills. Most people who have taken "E" haven’t ever taken pure MDMA. What they consider to be "E" is MDMA mixed with lots of other shit. Miles — "It’s only fair to warn that I was born with a set of horns, and metaphors attached to my damn umbilical cord." -Slim Shady

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Then you’re thinking incorrectly.  E is extacy, which is MDMA. I’m assuming that whoever asked Pilgrim about taking an E before getting a tattoo is talking about E pills not pure MDMA.

Then they are incorrect too.  It is your responsibility to keep the language consistent so that we all are talking about the same thing at the same time. If you mean ‘dirty E’ then say ‘dirty E’. It is almost impossible to get pure MDMA now a days

Bullshit. unless you make it yourself or directly know someone who can make it.

Or unless you’re a little raver kid who no one cares about…:)  Responsible drug users end up living a very long time because they know exactly what theyre taking. The *one* time I didnt, I got it from a raver kid. —–yttrx

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If it is actually an "e pill," then it IS pure MDMA. By your rationale, if someone sells you crushed up ritalin and tells you it’s cocaine, then it can be called cocaine.  You can still snort it, it will still do something to you, but that doesn’t mean it is what someone says it is. I was just saying that what is considered to be "E" on the street is not pure MDMA although it is called escatsy.

Then it is not extacy, its something else.  You’re not getting it. Whatever the chick, who wanted to take it before getting tattooed, got wouldn’t be pure MDMA. So I was assuming she was talking about "E" pills. Most people who have taken "E" haven’t ever taken pure MDMA. What they consider to be "E" is MDMA mixed with lots of other shit.

I dont know where you get your stuff from, but anyone who takes dirty X more than once is a fucking idiot. —–yttrx

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Then it is not extacy, its something else.  You’re not getting it.

Dude, I totally fucking get it. That’s why I put quotation marks around the "E". I’m just saying that pertaining to the question that was first asked, the "E" (notice the quotation marks) the girl would of got would not be pure MDMA. It would have many other things in it besides MDMA. I dont know where you get your stuff from, but anyone who takes dirty X more than once is a fucking idiot.

I totally agree. I’ve done many stupid things in the past, doing "E" was one of them. Even pure MDMA eventully fucks up the chemical balance of your brain. Miles — "It’s only fair to warn that I was born with a set of horns, and metaphors attached to my damn umbilical cord." -Slim Shady

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Question:

I just got my tattoo.. ::yeah:: how long should I wait before its okay to go swimming?  FAQ said 2 days… is that right?  My tattoo artist said no direct sun exposure for 2 weeks… and no soaking for 2 weeks….. so I’m wondering… I have a trip to Hawaii coming in 6 days.. and today is day 1 of my tattoo…. let me know please… thanks jen

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I just got my tattoo.. ::yeah:: how long should I wait before its okay to go swimming?  FAQ said 2 days… is that right?  My tattoo artist said no direct sun exposure for 2 weeks… and no soaking for 2 weeks….. so I’m wondering…

I would at least wait until it isn’t weepy. Some people (sounds like your artist agrees) think that it is best to wait until the flaking stage is over. Either way… my advice is to see how the tattoo is doing at that time.  If it looks like your body has rejuvenated enough skin… the decision is up to you. It is really a YMMV situation. It’s your body and your tattoo though, so…. who am I to say? One question: how do you feel about touch up sessions? Use a strong sunscreen lotion, and try not to totally submerge it in water for hours at a time. good luck —Angie a.k.a. D-Strss

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I just got my tattoo.. ::yeah:: how long should I wait before its okay to go swimming?  FAQ said 2 days… is that right?  My tattoo artist said no direct sun exposure for 2 weeks… and no soaking for 2 weeks….. so I’m wondering… I have a trip to Hawaii coming in 6 days.. and today is day 1 of my tattoo…. let me know please… thanks

I was told no soaking for about a month. You should ideally wait until the new skin is well healed and is past the shiny phase. I wouldn’t risk tanning or swimming, unless of course you want your tattoo to look icky. : — *.*.*GW Graphic Design.*.*. | First, of the foaming ale,       http://gwu.edu/~raven | Second, of a woman wed to another,  http://bmeworld.com/raven2 | Third, of the tricks of thieves. –Havamal

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when your skin is shiny and smooth again, you may swim. Any little hard nodules may soften, scab and lose color. it’s not about the time it takes, it’s about your skin being UN broken — Albert B  Jeffers III

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got my tattoo.. ::yeah:: how long should I wait before its okay to go swimming?  FAQ said 2 days… is that right?  My tattoo artist said no direct sun exposure for 2 weeks… and no soaking for 2 weeks….. so I’m wondering… I have a trip to Hawaii coming in 6 days.. and today is day 1 of my tattoo…. let me know please… thanks jen

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I just got my tattoo.. ::yeah:: how long should I wait before its okay to go swimming?  FAQ said 2 days… is that right?

My artist says keep it *dry* for one week to ten days, sun protected (covered) for a month with no sunscreen, sunscreen religiously after that. For every tattoo artist you ask you’ll get a different answer. The tattoo is forever. I’d take care of it even in Hawaii, if I were you. Dana

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I just got my tattoo.. ::yeah:: how long should I wait before its okay to go swimming?  FAQ said 2 days… is that right?  My tattoo artist said no direct sun exposure for 2 weeks… and no soaking for 2 weeks…..

Why, if you trusted the artist to do the work, do you not trust him on how to heal it? R.Knox……aka RevPhule God knows your alive……. he just doesn’t care.

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I just got my tattoo.. ::yeah:: how long should I wait before its okay to go swimming?  FAQ said 2 days… is that right?  My tattoo artist said no direct sun exposure for 2 weeks… and no soaking for 2 weeks….. so I’m wondering… I have a trip to Hawaii coming in 6 days.. and today is day 1 of my tattoo…. let me know please… thanks

I recommend to my clients to avoid soaking their tattoo until all of the peeling is done. One of my tattoos lost quite a bit of color because it was not done peeling before I soaked it ( I thought it was finished peeling). I am just wondering why you got a tattoo so close to when you were leaving? did you mention this to your artist? I usually recommend waiting until after a trip to a place with lots of sun and water.             Misha #

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I recommend to my clients to avoid soaking their tattoo until all of the peeling is done. One of my tattoos lost quite a bit of color because it was not done peeling before I soaked it ( I thought it was finished peeling). I am just wondering why you got a tattoo so close to when you were leaving? did you mention this to your artist? I usually recommend waiting until after a trip to a place with lots of sun and water.            Misha #

I was so worked up about getting a tattoo that I just went for it… didn’t think about my trip to Hawaii.  Me and two of my close friends all did something rebellious for spring break together… and I wanted a tattoo… had nothing I could get pierced anymore that I can conceal.  So I just completely forgot =)… stupid I guess jen

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I was so worked up about getting a tattoo that I just went for it… <snip Me and two of my close friends all did something rebellious for spring break together… and I wanted a tattoo… So I just completely forgot =)… stupid I guess

    Behold the power of rebellion.       but honestly, hope it works out, im guessing it irks artists to see something having to be retouched because of aftercare mishaps.

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     but honestly, hope it works out, im guessing it irks artists to see something having to be retouched because of aftercare mishaps.

Two small tattoos I got near the beginning of the year got messed up while they were healing because I developed these itchy staph-infection reactions to the freaky gun-toting self-proclaimed hippy I was dating at the time.  Nasty house, poor hygiene…  Derek <my tat artist was prepared to scold me for poor aftercare when he first saw the way they were messing up, but I’d done nothing different from my normal tattoo healing.  For a while, we couldn’t figure out what was causing the reactions, but then said hippy walked into the shop, and "Aha!"  Avoid the hippy, and all will be well….  My newest ink, post-hippy, was the usual breeze to heal.       When a significant other’s presence in your life makes your tattoos screw up, it’s definitely a sign to get out of the relationship….   ***skyelass***   "Go tell your parents you wish to be aborted.  Now."    –Kavin Taylor, rab 03/09/00 <to reply, remove "atose" from my address

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Question:

http://www.rabbithole.org doesn’t connect; i’m getting a "the server does not have a DNS entry" message

rabbithole.org is registered with the internic; ‘whois rabbithole.org’ on unix boxen will give you the record. However, none of the root name servers actually have a NS record for rabbithole.org, and the supposed authoritative nameserver, ns{1,2}.quintessential.com, are unreachable. Sounds like a combination of internic records and dns server problems. Tom, lurker, network perfesshunal

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I thought it was very good… informative.  Anyone coming here looking for any particular information should be able to find it through your FAQ (if all the links were working <g).

Yikes. I don’t write the *FAQ*; that’s far too much of an undertaking, and I’d be wholly unqualified. I just write a silly post with the urls This looks like a very nice and informed group.  I think I’m gonna like it here.

Good! myrrh (strike strike.)

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My work is now complete THANK YOU for reading it! I am the keeper of that welcome message. Tell me — as a newbie, what did you think of it?

I thought it was very good… informative.  Anyone coming here looking for any particular information should be able to find it through your FAQ (if all the links were working <g). $deity, this is unduly frustrating. It’ll be back eventually… for the FAQ’s, you might try (from Heidi’s .sig):  RAB FAQS: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bodyart  RAB Welcome FAQ: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bodyart/netiquette

Thanks!  I’ll try that. Btw, it’s so nice to find a "bunch" of people in one place that are into body art.  I’ve got 3 small tattoos and plan to get one more, then I’m quitting. But I realize that this is addictive, and I may not be able to quite at 4. I do love the ones I have, though. This looks like a very nice and informed group.  I think I’m gonna like it here. Sandy Fields Check out Stan’s fan club! http://www.stankirsch.com/oskfc.html

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:hi, :i’m still over 300 messages behind, but even when scanning thru subject lines :I’m not seeing this. :http://www.rabbithole.org doesn’t connect; i’m getting a "the server does not :have a DNS entry" message

OH!!!! You’re right!!!! I was looking at www.rabbithole.com! I’ll check into it.         Shannon BME: Body Modification Ezine                 http://www.BME.FreeQ.com/

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:hi, :i’m still over 300 messages behind, but even when scanning thru subject lines :I’m not seeing this. :http://www.rabbithole.org doesn’t connect; i’m getting a "the server does not :have a DNS entry" message : Connects fine from here… I just checked the following nameservers: ns.seventhfloor.com ns1.stdio.com andrew.dcr.net ns.bellsouth.net ncc.uky.edu and a couple of the sprint nameservers, and got non-existent domain on all of them. fpsm — | President, Seventh Floor Communications, Inc.  www.seventhfloor.com | | 167 West Main Street, Lexington, KY 40507                           |             ‘An it harm none, do what thou will.

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Hmm. Are the four you tried chaching nameservers, maybe?

Or caching, even? myrrh (strike strike.)

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Hmm. Are the four you tried chaching nameservers, maybe? Looks like some of us will just have to wait for an update. Bah.

I tried a two caches, BME’s *local* nameserver, and UUNet’s.         Shannon BME: Body Modification Ezine                 http://www.BME.FreeQ.com/

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As a newbie, I read the welcome message yesterday and tried to go to the RABbithole site.  

My work is now complete THANK YOU for reading it! I am the keeper of that welcome message. Tell me — as a newbie, what did you think of it? Oh, and WELCOME to RAB. Stick around. I got the same non-existent domain message, too.

$deity, this is unduly frustrating. It’ll be back eventually… for the FAQ’s, you might try (from Heidi’s .sig):   RAB FAQS: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bodyart   RAB Welcome FAQ: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bodyart/netiquette myrrh (strike strike.)

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i went to http://www.eskimo.com/~rab/ and clicked the link, in case i was typing it in wrong still same message Well, I don’t think Rebekah is insane I get a no dns error message as well. I tried it from four different nameservers in different parts of North America, and every one had it.

You’re a freak Hmm. Are the four you tried chaching nameservers, maybe? Looks like some of us will just have to wait for an update. Bah. myrrh (strike strike.)

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shannon wrote re http://www.rabbithole.org I tried it from four different nameservers in different parts of North America, and every one had it.

can i come to your house to log on? just kidding  i didn’t need anything off the site today; i was just updating some of the links on my own site when i noticed it. ~ rebekah http://www.bmeworld.com/rebekah/reasked-home.html "The glass is always half-empty. And cracked. And I just cut my lip on it. And chipped a tooth."   janeane garafolo AOL now has kill files for online readers

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i went to http://www.eskimo.com/~rab/ and clicked the link, in case i was typing it in wrong still same message Well, I don’t think Rebekah is insane I get a no dns error message as well.

I tried it from four different nameservers in different parts of North America, and every one had it.         Shannon BME: Body Modification Ezine                 http://www.BME.FreeQ.com/

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shannon wrote Connects fine from here… i went to http://www.eskimo.com/~rab/ and clicked the link, in case i was typing it in wrong still same message

Well, I don’t think Rebekah is insane I get a no dns error message as well. Wendy —          "Life is pain, Highness.  Anyone who says differently              is selling something." — The Princess Bride          

Question:

hey everyone just got in from work. My night went really well until this guy came in.  I had my tounge ring sticking out my teeth and he took one look at me and said "what is up with all you f**kin’ freaks these days. " I looked him in his eyes and used one of my favorite lines,  " you know what the difference between tattooed/pierced people and non tattooe/pierced people is.  we don’t care that you’re not tattooed or pierced"  He got all huffy and walked out.  Oh well.  just needed to

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hey everyone just got in from work. My night went really well until this guy came in.  I had my tounge ring sticking out my teeth and he took one look at me and said "what is up with all you f**kin’ freaks these days. " I looked him in his eyes and used one of my favorite lines,  " you know what the difference between tattooed/pierced people and non tattooe/pierced people is.  we don’t care that you’re not tattooed or pierced"  He got all huffy and walked out.  Oh well.  just needed to

Jenn, That stinks! Though I’m glad you let him have it.  It cracks me up that one tiny piece of metal freaks people out that much! Someone obviously has too much spare time or maybe he should learn that not everyone would make the same choices that he would.  His loss too, he’ll never experience the benefits of a pierce tongue, nipple, etc.   electric. — please remove ave. from the addy to send e-mail to electric

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Good for you

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" you know what the difference between tattooed/pierced people and non tattooe/pierced people is.  we don’t care that you’re not tattooed or pierced"

Good come back… I’ll have to use that! You go girl! ~Jamie~ When all in life is pain, from the pain must come joy.  ~Cecilia Tan http://members.aol.com/jamieblurr/index.html

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hey everyone just got in from work. My night went really well until this guy came in.  I had my tounge ring sticking out my teeth and he took one look at me and said "what is up with all you f**kin’ freaks these days. " I looked him in his eyes and used one of my favorite lines,  " you know what the difference between tattooed/pierced people and non tattooe/pierced people is.  we don’t care that you’re not tattooed or pierced"  He got all huffy and walked out.  Oh well.  just needed to

 I strikes me that these are the same type of people who were busy cowering in their cold, wet caves when Homo Sapien came along and wiped them off the planet….. (jest a random thought on a working Saturday) -Kevin — "Tried to think of a .sig file, but the voices in my head kept distracting me…" Note: Please remove the ’spam.’ from my address on replies….

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I forgot to add he not only had one of his ears piered he had both one

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I forgot to add he not only had one of his ears piered he had both one It seems to me that women get more of this shit than guys do.  No one has ever really freaked out at me.  Least not yet.  The funniest think so far is when an elderly couple took a look at me, gasped, grabbed each other, one wispered "oh my god" and they shuffled off.  I thought It was halarious. Sorry to hear people are such jerks. The unofficial Wingnut homepage http://home.att.net/~meyham Brad(*)

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this guy <snip… said "what is up with all you f**kin’ freaks these days. " I looked him in his eyes and used one of my favorite lines,  " you know what the difference between tattooed/pierced people and non tattooe/pierced people is.  we don’t care that you’re not tattooed or pierced"  He got all huffy and walked out.  Oh well.  just needed to

Hey Jenn… Yo go! Gawd dontcha love ‘em, stoopid morons. I think Meyham was right.  Us "weird chicks" are more liable to be picked on than guys.  I’ve got fully tatted 4-arms and strongly suspect that most people wouldn’t think _twice_ about commenting rudely, wrinkling their noses, _whatever_ … if the arms in question were connected to a guy.   Fuck um.  I normally wear long sleeves anyway (really not into faded tats… too much time energy and $$ invested !  ) and when I’m say at the gym or something, if someone makes a negative comment or insinuation I just say aww.. well ya know, these are the temporary permanent kinds. gets ‘em to _think_ … rubbing those two brain cells together takes work! But it truly sucks to be thought of as a scum bag by anyone just because you’ve got your tounge or whatever pierced or inked. Some guy noticed my nipple rings thru a t-shirt I was wearing last _you_, another ‘ellen degenerate,’"  and I started screaming "Pervert!" Pervert!" Stop staring at my breasts!" People in the deli started staring at _him._   It was pretty hilarious but I still hate being "judged" by morons and then I always feel bad after a confrontation like that. Donna "The greatest trick/ the devil ever pulled/ was convincing the world/ he didn’t exist."  

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alienlady says: hey everyone just got in from work. My night went really well until this guy came in.  I had my tounge ring sticking out my teeth and he took one look at me and said "what is up with all you f**kin’ freaks these days. " I looked him in his eyes and used one of my favorite lines,  " you know what the difference between tattooed/pierced people and non tattooe/pierced people is.  we don’t care that you’re not tattooed or pierced"

Good for you for standing up for yrself.  While I have grown accustomed to the stares, I experienced my first incredibly rude "comment" the other day.  I was out shopping with my boyfriend, dressed in very "normal" clothes (if it matters, he is very "normal" looking-  only a coupla small tattoos that are easily hidden with a tshirt).  My visible piercings consist of a septum, madonna, 10 ga lobes, and a simple traditional 18 ga cart pierce.  Not anything incredibly unusual/outrageous.  Anyhoo, some woman walked by us, looked directly at me, and goes "EEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWW!"  She passed me, and I could hear her say "that’s nasty!"  I couldn’t decide if I was amused or pissed.  I decided not to say anything to her because 1. she had already passed me, and 2. rude people are a waste of my time.  My boyfriend, however, has made a hobby of staring people down who stare at me, because usually their eyes move onto him as soon as they’re finished with me.  Then they feel stupid.  Heh.  Then again, I’m also bugged that in certain "trendy" stores (ie Hot Topic or Newbury Comics, for the Mass residents), I am treated better by the employees (’cause I just look so damn hip-  yeah right!) than my unperforated friends.  Reverse discrimination is just as unnecessary, IMHO.  Geez, I should shut up now. Bye bye . . . *sarahmonster ***If you choose to reply via email, I’d prefer you send it to:

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this guy <snip… said "what is up with all you f**kin’ freaks these days. " I looked him in his eyes and used one of my favorite lines,  " you know what the difference between tattooed/pierced people and non tattooe/pierced people is.  we don’t care that you’re not tattooed or pierced"  He got all huffy and walked out.  Oh well.  just needed to Hey Jenn… Yo go! Gawd dontcha love ‘em, stoopid morons. I think Meyham was right.  Us "weird chicks" are more liable to be picked on than guys.  I’ve got fully tatted 4-arms and strongly suspect that most people wouldn’t think _twice_ about commenting rudely, wrinkling their noses, _whatever_ … if the arms in question were connected to a guy. Fuck um.  I normally wear long sleeves anyway (really not into faded tats… too much time energy and $$ invested !  ) and when I’m say at the gym or something, if someone makes a negative comment or insinuation I just say aww.. well ya know, these are the temporary permanent kinds. gets ‘em to _think_ … rubbing those two brain cells together takes work! But it truly sucks to be thought of as a scum bag by anyone just because you’ve got your tounge or whatever pierced or inked. Some guy noticed my nipple rings thru a t-shirt I was wearing last _you_, another ‘ellen degenerate,’"  and I started screaming "Pervert!" Pervert!" Stop staring at my breasts!" People in the deli started staring at _him._ It was pretty hilarious but I still hate being "judged" by morons and then I always feel bad after a confrontation like that. Donna "The greatest trick/ the devil ever pulled/ was convincing the world/ he didn’t exist."

(appologizing for all the twin brain cell jerk off guys out there) Sorry,  there sure are alot of jerk guys out there.  And fortunately none in here. The unofficial Wingnut homepage http://home.att.net/~meyham Brad(*)

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I forgot to add he not only had one of his ears piered he had both one It seems to me that women get more of this shit than guys do.  No one has ever really freaked out at me.  Least not yet.

lot from people who do. It is usually women.  Maybe it is because people who have to act like jerks are just very fearful and men are more intimidating to them. Aarron http://www.angelfire.com/wa/tattooist

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Maybe it is because people who have to act like jerks are just very fearful and men are more intimidating to them. Aarron http://www.angelfire.com/wa/tattooist

Sad but true. The unofficial Wingnut homepage http://home.att.net/~meyham Brad(*)

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The funniest think so far is when an elderly couple took a look at me, gasped, grabbed each other, one wispered "oh my god" and they shuffled off.  I thought It was halarious.

I’ve been thinking aboot having a t shirt made for myself.  The front will read: "Oh my God…" and the back: "did you see that guy?" To get it, you would have to be walking past me, reading the front and then the back.  It’s the most common thing I hear from people. peace josh      "Even though you know a thousand things, ask the man who knows one."                       Security Director, SEE Productions                          http://www.wam.umd.edu/~obmf

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The funniest think so far is when an elderly couple took a look at me, gasped, grabbed each other, one wispered "oh my god" and they shuffled off.  I thought It was halarious. I’ve been thinking aboot having a t shirt made for myself.  The front will read: "Oh my God…" and the back: "did you see that guy?" To get it, you would have to be walking past me, reading the front and then the back.  It’s the most common thing I hear from people. peace josh     "Even though you know a thousand things, ask the man who knows one."                      Security Director, SEE Productions                         http://www.wam.umd.edu/~obmf

Geez we think so much alike! The unofficial Wingnut homepage http://home.att.net/~meyham Brad(*)

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The funniest think so far is when an elderly couple took a look at me, gasped, grabbed each other, one wispered "oh my god" and they shuffled off.  I thought It was halarious. I’ve been thinking aboot having a t shirt made for myself.  The front will read: "Oh my God…"

My new (sensible) thing for when relatively nice people ask me "did that hurt" (about my 2" lobes) is to point out that since they have more earrings than me, I should be asking them "didn’t that hurt?". Of course if they’re not nice I just tell them it’s fake. And most actually believe it.         Shannon BME: Body Modification Ezine: http://BME.FreeQ.com/ UNUSUAL REAL HUMAN SKULLS: http://BME.FreeQ.com/skulls/

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Geez we think so much alike!

If I were you, I would be very, very scared if you think like me }:). peace josh      "Even though you know a thousand things, ask the man who knows one."                       Security Director, SEE Productions                          http://www.wam.umd.edu/~obmf

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I’ve been thinking aboot having a t shirt made for myself.  The front will read: "Oh my God…" and the back: "did you see that guy?"

that’s just beautiful! If you ever get around to printing them… put me down for the female version……you really made my day with that one….thanx TeeJay

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I’ve been thinking aboot having a t shirt made for myself.  The front will read: "Oh my God…" and the back: "did you see that guy?" To get it, you would have to be walking past me, reading the front and then the back.  It’s the most common thing I hear from people. peace josh

I’ll take one too, just use the extra snippings from when they make one of your sleeves I think this was a RABcon conversation, but do your friends also like to walk five paces behind you to catch all the faces and comments?  I begin to wonder if people realize the pack of laughing fools behind me are laughing at their comments and not me behind my back… Erik Sprague aka Snakeboy -< http://members.aol.com/spidergod5/index.html

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I’ve been thinking aboot having a t shirt made for myself.  The front will read: "Oh my God…" and the back: "did you see that guy?"

ROTFLMAO!!!  I FREEKIN LOVE IT!!!  No one could wear better!  Freekin Geenyus! — G

Question:

Hello, I’ll admit it – I’m older, and therefore anything I post here may be resented by the under-18’s here. But it’s getting a little tiresome when a fifteen year old who’s gotten one tattoo or a non-earlobe pierce or two suddenly starts posting as if they know all the answers to everyone’s questions. This is *not* to say that you have nothing valid to say, or that you shouldn’t post until you’re "older and wiser" – I’d resent that coming from me, too. But please, you aren’t experts, and shouldn’t start giving advice. This also pertains to older 1st timers, too – you just don’t have enough data. (can you tell I’m a programmer?) Telling of your own experience is cool, and one of the reasons for this newsgroups existence. But for answers to questions dealing with graphically enhancing ones body, they’re better served by being told to check out the FAQs. Anyone who posts asking whether or not they should get this tattoo or that brand or that pierce probably shouldn’t since they aren’t totally committed to it, and at least as far as a tattoo goes, that’s pretty much a commitment. (Yes I know about laser removal, but that’s a whole other ball of wax). But I wouldn’t tell them to not get it or for that matter *to* get it, just because it *must* be their *own* decision. I’ve put in a lot of hours under the needle, so many that I’ve also purchased a couple of Huck Spaulding Supreme Deluxes, ink, needles, sterilization equipment and many other supplies used in the tattoo art. I’ve tattooed myself on my ankle (an interesting experience), and my SO on his thigh and arm. I know I need to devote myself to it, and tattoo more to become as good as I’d like to be, but in the business I’m in they pay me a lot of money to work with computers and it’s hard to give that up. After all, I’d not have been able to buy all this stuff without it. I don’t think I’m an expert on tattoos though.  Small tattoos have been a piece of cake painwise, and I used to scoff when people would say how much it bothered them. Then I started going for long jobs – the snake armband that is in the Tattoo magazine that just came out took 3 hours. My other arm (the better work as far as I’m concerned, it’s too bad the editors at Tattoo didn’t) was finally sleeved in 3 sessions of 2 hours (a bit of that session can be seen in the picture), 4 and 2 1/2 hours. I’ve had 2 sessions at 2 1/2 hours each on my backpiece, (another 1/2 hour to 1 1/2 hours spent at the beginning of each session being drawn on) and am looking at quite a few more before we’re done. Next 7/13, then 7/20, can’t wait!! These long ones have been painful. But the thing is – if you really want the piece, it is never *too* painful. I guess that’s the only expert advice I’d give…         Susan

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: I’ll admit it – I’m older, and therefore anything I post here may be : resented by the under-18’s here. But it’s getting a little tiresome when : a fifteen year old who’s gotten one tattoo or a non-earlobe pierce or : two suddenly starts posting as if they know all the answers to : everyone’s questions. I agree with your post, Susan. I, also, don’t mean any disprespect to anyone but I’ve recently (within the past few weeks) returned to this group after spending time away, and what Susan is talking about has been very much in evidence. Someone posted here recently saying that the group has turned into a "teen chat line"… well, I wouldn’t go THAT far, but there DOES seem to be quite an upsurgence of very young people giving out advice when they don’t really have the experience to do so. Once again, I’m not being mean to anyone. If Susan hadn’t posted this then I probably wouldn’t have said anything myself, but I do feel she deserves some support with this, rather than the flames that are bound to follow. — =MOOSE= www.kakaroon.demon.co.uk

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Hello everyone, <rantwell..time for another gem of "wisdom" from your friendly neighbourhood Teen! Know what? I agree with Moose & Susan myself. Yeah, I’m 17 :::listens to jaws dropping::: However it makes sense to me. I’ve never been big on posting "advice advice." I don’t feel at all comfortable doing that. I’d hate to feel responsible for jeopardizing anyones new Joys. I’ll let the pros and/or the well experienced vouch for advice. it’s simply not my bag, and i do not feel that i should rightfully answer anything of the sort. Brava, Susan. I felt this one coming on long ago. No offense to my peers, but posting experiences & opinions are one thing. telling One how to handle An infected Earl is really none of our business. not to mention the fact its pretty stupid & more than semi-dangerous. I’ve also noticed the influx of 13 and 12 year olds wanting piercings. I hate labels, but i think this is a bit of a fad here. I wanted piercings at a young age, but i waited to make sure the commitment still stood. At a mere 12 years old, it seemed more like a chore than a pleasure to me. So take this as a simple warning–its like a young pet, in a way. it must be handled carefully, fed (with it’s chosen cleaning fluid, be it antibacterial soap, etc.) and stay well rested so that it may heal. It’s a commitment. </rant Thanks! L.A.

: I’ll admit it – I’m older, and therefore anything I post here may be : resented by the under-18’s here. But it’s getting a little tiresome when : a fifteen year old who’s gotten one tattoo or a non-earlobe pierce or : two suddenly starts posting as if they know all the answers to : everyone’s questions. "I Could Wait, In Your Line, And If You Had No MONEY I’d Give You My Last Dime." –that dog

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Once again, I’m not being mean to anyone. If Susan hadn’t posted this then I probably wouldn’t have said anything myself, but I do feel she deserves some support with this, rather than the flames that are bound to follow.

Excuse the "me too" post, but… ehm… me too. (Just showing my support too ) — Beth Wise                        | aka Ink on #Amiga, Undernet      |    |      _,,,—,,_ http://www.toptown.com/          |   |,4-  ) )-,_..; (  `’-’    centralpark/ink               |  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_) Amiga 4000/040/25MHz/18MB        |                       Purr

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Ok there is some dissension.  Well not really, I don’t think anyone should tell someone how to take care of problems if they are not an expert, however I do think advice should be given when asked for as long as the asker is aware that not everyone who answers is an expert.  I think age is not necescarily directly correlated to wisdom.  I have met plenty of dumb people of all ages, and if anyone listens to someone just because they are older…  Well let me just say they deserve whatever they may get. Observe people and then judge them, not based on age.  Thank you back to lurking

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With regards to young and inexperienced people posting advice… The exchange of information is what the internet is all about… Determining what information to accept…and what to do with it…well that’s kinda like evolution in action…! A new way to reach the masses does not have to instantly become a method of disseminating misinformation.  It’s up to us to see that it evolves from a higher baseline. Rec.arts.bodyart as moderated by Lani and Ann has always been a beacon of reason and order, in the otherwise chaotic world of internet newsgroups. It would be nice to see this newsgroup continue to exist as a way to exchange information that is factual and helpful, don’t you think?

Susan,      Aren’t we over reacting just a wee bit here? Merely because Syco advocates letting the kiddies have a bit of input doesn’t equal a "method of disseminating misinformation". So their conclusions may be eroneous, based on the limited experience of their lives. That’s the definition of a young person. As to the "moderation" of the Reverend Lani and our Lady Anne of the Green, they are the keepers of our FAQs, our collective experiences. They are hardly referees or overseers. Like the rest of us, the chime in with their experience and opinions, rightly or wrongly and while they may have maternal feelings towards the members of this group, they do not clean up our messes or censor the discussions. Besides, you don’t take everything you read at face value do you? The Internet is about opinion; there is no such thing as "fact" or "truth" especially on the Web. Even RABbits come in all shapes, sizes, political and social stripes, bonded by a common interested in modifying our bodies for the sake of beauty (or whatever). Let the young ones in, as well as us newbies and guide them along towards enlightenment. Yours, climbing down off the soap box, Richard Deane in Vancouver, BC

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With regards to young and inexperienced people posting advice… The exchange of information is what the internet is all about… Determining what information to accept…and what to do with it…well that’s kinda like evolution in action…!

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Ok there is some dissension.  Well not really, I don’t think anyone should tell someone how to take care of problems if they are not an expert, however I do think advice should be given when asked for as long as the asker is aware that not everyone who answers is an expert.  I think age is not necescarily directly correlated to wisdom.  I have met plenty of dumb people of all ages, and if anyone listens to someone just because they are older…  Well let me just say they deserve whatever they may get. Observe people and then judge them, not based on age.  Thank you back to lurking

My point about that is, if you don’t have the credentials/experience, your best advice is "Read the FAQ". The asker may not necessarily be aware that the advice is not being tendered by an expert. Age is not necessarily indicative of wisdom, true; but some of the posts I’ve been reading of late from younger (and newer to bodmod) bodmod enthusiasts, were causing me some concern. Getting one or even a couple of pierces/tattoos does not mean you are qualified to advise anyone on decisions that they can only make themselves. And as I said in my post, that doesn’t apply only to younger newly-modified, but everyone new to the experience. — Susan

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With regards to young and inexperienced people posting advice… The exchange of information is what the internet is all about… Determining what information to accept…and what to do with it…well that’s kinda like evolution in action…!

A new way to reach the masses does not have to instantly become a method of disseminating misinformation.  It’s up to us to see that it evolves from a higher baseline. Rec.arts.bodyart as moderated by Lani and Ann has always been a beacon of reason and order, in the otherwise chaotic world of internet newsgroups. It would be nice to see this newsgroup continue to exist as a way to exchange information that is factual and helpful, don’t you think?

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I have to say that I’m with Susan in regards to her rant. Since I post through Deja News, I send a courtesy copy email when I am responding directly to someone.  Messages get dropped by servers, so I want to make sure my response gets to the poster. In response to an earlier post of mine, one of our younger readers emailed me privately.  The message was full of attitude.  This person also mentioned a few things that were in direct contradiction to very generally accepted advice on piercing that one might read in the FAQ, or hear from any of the professional piercers who post here. Whenever I post — which is not that frequently, I admit — I try very hard to respect others’ feelings and make intelligent, cognizant arguments that are backed up by detail, personal experience, etc.  To see what I get in return is extremely discouraging. Should I not be so sensitive and chalk it up to "well that’s the ‘net for ya?" I suppose.  But this is getting very disheartening. — Sarah from S.F.

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: : With regards to young and inexperienced people posting advice… : The exchange of information is what the internet is all about… : Determining what information to accept…and what to do with it…well : that’s kinda like evolution in action…! : A new way to reach the masses does not have to instantly become a method : of disseminating misinformation.  It’s up to us to see that it evolves : from a higher baseline. No, but it does tend to make people realise that they have to be responsible for ensuring that any information they choose to rely upon is from a worthy source, a skill sadly lacked by far too many in this benighted country (and I suspect in others too) : Rec.arts.bodyart as moderated by Lani and Ann has always been a beacon : of reason and order, in the otherwise chaotic world of internet : newsgroups. RAB is not moderated.  Would you like to buy a clue? Hint: read RFC822 and RFC 850, and maybe even RFC 977. : It would be nice to see this newsgroup continue to exist as a way to : exchange information that is factual and helpful, don’t you think? It would be nice to see this newsgroup continue to exchange as a forum for the exchange of ideas by everyone, not just the gurus. —  "We have done so much for so long with so little that we are now      qualified to do anything with nothing." –Unknown Techie   david bliss / kf4mwn / 39 07′50"N 84 30′53"W / TS, IS, Sysadmin      i speak for no one but myself, and sometimes not even him

Response:

Susan,      Aren’t we over reacting just a wee bit here? Merely because Syco advocates letting the kiddies have a bit of input doesn’t equal a "method of disseminating misinformation". So their conclusions may be eroneous, based on the limited experience of their lives. That’s the definition of a young person.

You don’t understand my point (here is an example of how the net breaks down as a means of communication). I don’t say that people, young or old, should "shut up and listen to their betters", because they’re too young and/or too inexperienced.  I think all of us have the right to tell of our experiences, and voice our opinions; but on a technical issue, the FAQ is best. I’d seen a few too many posts giving advice where the advice may not have been too well thought out. As to the "moderation" of the Reverend Lani and our Lady Anne of the Green, they are the keepers of our FAQs, our collective experiences. They are hardly referees or overseers. Like the rest of us, the chime in with their experience and opinions, rightly or wrongly and while they may have maternal feelings towards the members of this group, they do not clean up our messes or censor the discussions.

Sheesh, I knew that — I, uh, forgot… Really, I think it’s more because I respect both Lani and Anne (hi, Anne!), and the way a while ago, they both would often step in to correct erroneous information immediately, that made me write that. Besides, you don’t take everything you read at face value do you? The Internet is about opinion; there is no such thing as "fact" or "truth" especially on the Web.

The problem is, it’s often hard to tell who is the expert and who’s just mouthing off if you are new to the web. That’s why I’m saying that in matters of hard fact, refer people to the FAQ.  Otherwise, long live free speech and opinions and telling the world how happy you are about getting a new tat, pierce, brand, whatever. Even RABbits come in all shapes, sizes, political and social stripes, bonded by a common interested in modifying our bodies for the sake of beauty (or whatever). Let the young ones in, as well as us newbies and guide them along towards enlightenment. Yours, climbing down off the soap box, Richard Deane in Vancouver, BC

Richard, I am not advocating an elite club for the (some might say) overly modified. I’m just asking newbies to cool it on the handing out of technical advice.

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No, but it does tend to make people realise that they have to be responsible for ensuring that any information they choose to rely upon is from a worthy source, a skill sadly lacked by far too many in this benighted country (and I suspect in others too)

Agreed. I guess I would like to see this newsgroup remain as unsullied as it *used* to be. It seems to me that that should be more the case for this newsgroup than many others – we are after all talking of puncturing skin in order to augment our bodies. : Rec.arts.bodyart as moderated by Lani and Ann has always been a beacon : of reason and order, in the otherwise chaotic world of internet : newsgroups. RAB is not moderated.  Would you like to buy a clue? Hint: read RFC822 and RFC 850, and maybe even RFC 977.

As I said in my response to Richard Deane, I actually knew that (I posted last night just before going to bed – that’ll teach me to rant when I’m tired). But a year or two ago, when Lani and Anne were a bit more active in this newsgroup (we miss you dearly, btw), if any bad advice were given, one or the other could be counted on to set things right, and point people towards the FAQ. It would be nice to see this newsgroup continue to exchange as a forum for the exchange of ideas by everyone, not just the gurus.

Nowhere did I say just the gurus should participate in this newsgroup (that would leave me out, too).  If I gave that impression, I’m sorry. Susan

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Rec.arts.bodyart as moderated by Lani and Ann has always been a beacon of reason and order, in the otherwise chaotic world of internet newsgroups.

r.a.b. is not and never has been moderated by Lani and Anne.         Shannon BME: Body Modification EZine                    http://www.BME.FreeQ.com

Response:

My point about that is, if you don’t have the credentials/experience, your best advice is "Read the FAQ". The asker may not necessarily be aware that the advice is not being tendered by an expert. Age is not necessarily indicative of wisdom, true; but some of the posts I’ve been reading of late from younger (and newer to bodmod) bodmod enthusiasts, were causing me some concern. Getting one or even a couple of pierces/tattoos does not mean you are qualified to advise anyone on decisions that they can only make themselves. And as I said in my post, that doesn’t apply only to younger newly-modified, but everyone new to the experience.

I know ov a piercer who used to tell people that the bump on their navel was cancer (as a joke). I know ov another piercer who still insists that hydrogen peroxide, Betadine and Hibiclens are the best options for cleaning a piercing (not a joke). Who’s worse?  The first or second piercer, or the person who believes them?  Buyer beware!         Denise Robinson, Ambient Inc.       Virtual Publicist, Jim Rose Circus           http://www.ambient.on.ca/         "You’re skating on the edge."        "I *am* the edge." —  Aeon Flux  TO REPLY REMOVE "nospam." from my email address

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Rec.arts.bodyart as moderated by Lani and Ann has always been a beacon of reason and order, in the otherwise chaotic world of internet newsgroups.

First ov all, while I don’t want to disparage the contributions that Anne and Lani have made in the past, I’d like to point out that lately many ov our regulars have been trying to stem the flow ov spam and keeping up he quality ov content (Quiet kudos to you all!) and doing a darned fine job.  Anne and Lani’s primary current involvement is the maintenance and dissemination ov the FAQs, and where do you think they get their information?  From people mouthing off in the newsgroup! Who can you tell is an"expert"?  Who is to say that the FAQs are always accurate and uptodate?  I know that Anne works her cute little tattooed and corsetted <yum! ass off on the FAQ, but there’s only so much a single person can do, and I’m certain that between the monthly postings the occasional blip passes through. Now- credibility.  What makes an "expert"?  Someone who knows the FAQ backwards?  A professional who was trained for umpteen years?  A collector who has almost full coverage? I don’t think that there is a single professional in this newsgroup who has ever seen me pierce, and yet it would appear that I have a good reputation.  For all people know, I could be the biggest hack ov the universe with a good knack for publicity.  Until last December, hardly anyone south ov Toronto, Canada had met me.  I could’ve been a witty thirteen year-old paraphrasing what I’d heard. It would be nice to see this newsgroup continue to exist as a way to exchange information that is factual and helpful, don’t you think?

Well, I for one would be pretty bored if the majority ov the content ov the newsgroup became questions answered by "read the FAQ".   I’d hope that the FAQ could help answer the more mundane and, well, frequently-asked questions, leaving bandwidth for more interesting discussions, but it shouldn’t be considered the point finale ov knowledge. When it comes to the teen chat line aspect, well, who are "we" to say who has the right to post here?  I’m glad that there is a ressource for people who are taking a little bit more time to research their next project.  If they take all the advice they receive from a newsgroup, I feel sorry, but heck, a plethora ov POVs is usually a good thang. About three years ago, I used to bang my head against the wall reading posts from people dissing nineteen year-old ladies asking about navel piercings.  The attitude seemed to be that a navel piercing was just too trendy and not as valid as other body art.  I railed against those posters.  A few months ago we lost a few readers and prolific posters because they didn’t like the way the newsgroup had evolved.  They seemed to dislike the amount ov professional content vs. fan info. RAB evolves, just as has body art in the past decade.  If you don’t like the teen questions, don’t read ‘em.  Drown ‘em out with in-depth descriptions ov your work, the meaning, and perceptions ov it by all means!   Forgive me this rant, I’m running on twelve hours ov sleep over the span ov eighty=four hours.         Denise Robinson, Ambient Inc.       Virtual Publicist, Jim Rose Circus           http://www.ambient.on.ca/         "You’re skating on the edge."        "I *am* the edge." —  Aeon Flux  TO REPLY REMOVE "nospam." from my email address

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but there DOES seem to be quite an upsurgence of very young people

giving out advice when they don’t really have the experience to do so. i dont know what kind of "advice" you are talking about here that we dont have the right to give. And just because you may have a dozen tattoos and i only have one that means that my experiences arent valid in comparison to yours? If someone asks about after care of a tattoo and i relate my story of how my mother and i both developed a severe rash that had to be treated by our dermatologist and warn them not to make the mistakes we did, youre saying that i dont have the right to give it because ive only gone through it once? thats ridiculous.  I have not noticed us youngins giving "advice that we dont have the experience to" give. My only piercings are in my ears, so if someone asks about a tongue piercing im not going go give them advice. First of all, any advice that is true to form anyone can give has the probability to be helpful to the asker. Sure, i would listen more intently to the person who has spent 100 hours under the needle but i would never discount what the person who spent one hour had to say. Is is someone on this NG who’s sig says "Even if you know a thousand things, ask the man who knows one." ? I think this is really disgusting and yet another example of kids getting steped on because were kids. We’re teenagers, we overexaggerate and are melodramatic. We dont get taken seriously. You would be astounded at how smart kids are these days, some of my friends are more mature and intelligent than most adults i know.   I was furious at the comment "teen chat line", i havent noticed any kids relating things to this group that didnt in some direct or indirect way apply to body modifications. It was just this individual noticed that underagers were giving their advice or stories (which they probably didnt even read) and thought that it must not be valid because we are, after all, "just kids".  The context in which they said "teen chat line" added unnecissary frivolity to our posts and was totally demeaning to us. Perhaps they just meant that they dont want "that" here, which i would understand (even though i have not noticed anything that goes along with a steryotypical teen chat line here).   I am really upset and offended by this.  I really like this group because we are friendly and close and trusting and this is an incredibly interesting topic.  If i in particular added a post that was completely off-topic or upset you in some way, please let me know. But i feel very isolated that i have been outcasted and basically told that my input is not taken seriously simply because of my age and that i am not tatooed or pierced from head to toe. This kind of blind generalization is really upseting. Awaiting the flames to add to her fumes ~~~AnnaBanana People call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute.                                 ~~~Rebecca West There’s just something about an anatomically correct rubber suit that puts fire in girls eye                                 ~~~PoisonIvy

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Susan,      Aren’t we over reacting just a wee bit here? Merely because Syco advocates letting the kiddies have a bit of input doesn’t equal a "method of disseminating misinformation". So their conclusions may be eroneous, based on the limited experience of their lives. That’s the definition of a young person.

i cant tell you how insulted i am by this statement.  I cant believe that just because we are young people our conclusions have to be wrong.  I want examples of our missinformation.  

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In response to an earlier post of mine, one of our younger readers emailed me privately.  The message was full of attitude.  This person also mentioned a few things that were in direct contradiction to very generally accepted advice on piercing that one might read in the FAQ, or hear from any of the professional piercers who post here. so this individual was a jerk. you cannot assume that now *all* kids are obnoxious jerks because of one!  Do you know how many obnoxious jerky adults ive met? youve probably met just as many, do you assume that all adults are like that? oh yay weve descovered a new form of descrimination: ageism ~~~AnnaBanana People call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute.                                 ~~~Rebecca West There’s just something about an anatomically correct rubber suit that puts fire in girls eye                                 ~~~PoisonIvy

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In any type of group you will end up with a faction of elitist snotballs who think they know it all and are quick to point this out to the rest of the regular folks.The warning signs are the condescending/patronizing comments that have been made…..you would like to hope that a group such as this is so massively diverse in its conventional thinking that it would rise above this retarded crap. be cream,people……

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so this individual was a jerk. you cannot assume that now *all* kids are obnoxious jerks because of one!  Do you know how many obnoxious jerky adults ive met? youve probably met just as many, do you assume that all adults are like that?

I never said all "kids" are "obnoxious jerks."  All I said was that I was disheartened by an email I received from someone who didn’t carefully read what I wrote, nor took into account the spirit in which it was written. –Sarah

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Susan,      Aren’t we over reacting just a wee bit here? Merely because Syco advocates letting the kiddies have a bit of input doesn’t equal a "method of disseminating misinformation". So their conclusions may be eroneous, based on the limited experience of their lives. That’s the definition of a young person. i cant tell you how insulted i am by this statement.  I cant believe that just because we are young people our conclusions have to be wrong.  I want examples of our missinformation.

Darling,        you just gave one. The statement reads ‘may be’, as in the possibility of, it sometimes might be. At no time did I equate youth with stupidity. As to the "method of dissemintating missinformation", it’s in quotes for a reason…I’m quoting the original author. They’re her words not mine. Take it up with her Shall we add impetuous to the definition of youth? Yours, bones creaking, Richard Deane in Vancouver, BC

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You need to STOP accusing Susan. She stated that those NEW to bod-MOD in GENERAL should watch what they say. She means by this, for example, that someone who happens to have 1 tattoo and nothing else would be oblivious to the care of say, an infected earl. Who was she refering to? Well, In my minds eye it includes an amount of the kids here, and another amount of people in the 18-whatever age span. Underagers, word of advice–you appear the fools when you jump the gun the way you have in this thread. NO-ONE IS OR WAS attacking you. the 18s & overs aren’t your enemies. check it before you wreck it. if’d you’d like to be treated like 15 year olds, keep it up. you are all doing a wonderful job. Some of you have relayed good experiences. but i have to say, some of the "advice" i’ve heard given by kids & adults alike, are shite. i will not name names. those who gave it know who they are. shoulda read the entire post before you  whined about it. you’ll see more fine print in your life than you will ever know. so plug the maturity leaks & carry on. l.a.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You need to STOP accusing Susan. She stated that those NEW to bod-MOD in GENERAL should watch what they say. She means by this, for example, that someone who happens to have 1 tattoo and nothing else would be oblivious to the care of say, an infected earl. Who was she refering to? Well, In my minds eye it includes an amount of the kids here, and another amount of people in the 18-whatever age span. Underagers, word of advice–you appear the fools when you jump the gun the way you have in this thread. NO-ONE IS OR WAS attacking you. the 18s & overs aren’t your enemies. check it before you wreck it. if’d you’d like to be treated like 15 year olds, keep it up. you are all doing a wonderful job. Some of you have relayed good experiences. but i have to say, some of the "advice" i’ve heard given by kids & adults alike, are shite. i will not name names. those who gave it know who they are. shoulda read the entire post before you  whined about it. you’ll see more fine print in your life than you will ever know. so plug the maturity leaks & carry on. l.a.

l.a, Thank you for understanding my post. I never attacked anyone, just tried to caution people new to bodmod that they needed to try to be more circumspect. I understand the headiness of getting your first (and second and third…); but everyone should understand that this isn’t a matter of offering opinions about what’s the best makeup for that goth look. You are doing short-term damage to your skin, abrading and poking holes in your body. The implications of this (and the permanence, at least for tattoos) need to be understood and respected. I never said all young people were know-nothing obnoxious jerks with nothing good to contribute. It would seem that some (please note: some) young skin is very thin skin, and some people are quick to take offense where none was given. If people think I’m an elitist snob, then so be it. If being aware that I don’t know everything, and trying to nicely tell others who have even less experience with bodmod and all it entails than I, that they don’t either is the definition of "an elitist snotball", then that’s me!!         Susan the snotball

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i dont know what kind of "advice" you are talking about here that we dont have the right to give. And just because you may have a dozen tattoos and i only have one that means that my experiences arent valid in comparison to yours?

Actually, spend 2 1/2 hours getting outline on your back and come back to me on that one… If someone asks about after care of a tattoo and i relate my story of how my mother and i both developed a severe rash that had to be treated by our dermatologist and warn them not to make the mistakes we did, youre saying that i dont have the right to give it because ive only gone through it once? thats ridiculous.

You did read my post, yes? I can’t find the original, but in an answer to

        I don’t say that people, young or old, should "shut up and listen to         their betters", because they’re too young and/or too inexperienced.           I think all of us have the right to tell of our experiences, and voice         our opinions; but on a technical issue, the FAQ is best.  I have not noticed us youngins giving "advice that we dont have the experience to" give.

I don’t believe I ever singled you out, Anna. Anyone, for that matter. But recently I have seen a thread here, where one of the contributors seemed to be wavering on whether or not to get a brand, and seemed to want people to tell him it was ok. One of our newer rabbits chimed up with "Yes! Do it!" and this scared me a bit. This is something that can only be decided by the individual himself, and must be something he’s absolutely sure about. The rest of us won’t be there when he’s getting it, or have any control over the quality of the piece, or be able to assist him in it’s care. And if he’s wavering now, if he isn’t sure about it, who’s to say he’ll like it when the deed has been done? I am really upset and offended by this.  I really like this group because we are friendly and close and trusting and this is an incredibly interesting topic.  If i in particular added a post that was completely off-topic or upset you in some way, please let me know. But i feel very isolated that i have been outcasted and basically told that my input is not taken seriously simply because of my age and that i am not tatooed or pierced from head to toe. This kind of blind generalization is really upseting.

You’ve never offended *me* (I can’t hope to answer for everyone), and I never intended to offend you (I had nothing to say about the "teen chatline" thing – don’t blame me for that one), or anyone else. I tried actually to be as bland as I possibly could (not an easy thing for an Irish/Italian girl born under the sign of Taurus), though I knew I’d get flamed nevertheless.  And I included all newbies, young and old. I think if people were less quick to take offense, and attack, there could be a lot of interesting discussions here.         Susan the snotball (I’m starting to like that…)

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Question:

This is my first post to this board, and I just wanted to second what the other women were saying.  There is no "tattoo" type–there is no such thing!  I have red and green shooting stars on my left shoulder, I’m female, late 20s and a University Professor. Having a tattoo was a wonderful life changing experience and a moment of bonding with my old roomate (who had a Geiger design at the same time). Tattoos are great because they make your body truly yours and change your relationship to yourself and with others.  There is no need to apologize or be ashamed.  If you and your wife enjoy her tattoos, then that is all that matters.  I recommend the Re-Search book on Modern Primitives (tattoing and body piercing mostly, some scarification) to anybody interested in the topic–as well as the postings on this group, of course! Moya

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*SNIP!* I am a 30 year old woman, and an Admissions Officer in a top ten Medical School in the United States. I am married and have an 8 year old son, and he thinks my tattoo’s are cool, as does my (untattoo’d) husband.  I have a tat bracelet on my left wrist and a small crescent moon upon my right wrist, and when I first began working at the Med School, noone so much as batted an eye!  I wear both long sleeves and short sleeves to work, the only mention I have ever really received was compliments from fellow workers, or a med student who grinned and wondered where I had gotten mine, turns out he had ink from a local woman – who happens to be the same artist I will be working with beginning this Saturday, when I get started on a full sleeve (left arm). (Can’t wait!  Yay!) I believe the world would be BORING if we all looked/acted/thought the same! Perhaps you should begin thinking of the ink as living art, a masterpiece upon your wife’s body…  Sounds like you may have the mind set that sailor’s, ‘bad’ girls, and bikers get tat’s, instead of the art form it has become.  I highly recommend you check out some books, especially "The Illustrated Woman" (Not sure of the author, ask your local bookstore).   Some of the most beautiful women in the world are inked! Imp! "If ya wanna torture me, spank me, Lick me, whatever.  But if this poetry shit continues, just shoot me now" Tank Girl

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Lani Teshima-Miller wrote from inside the event horizon to All:  LT I know why she wants to hide it–because she doesn’t think  LT it’s worth the  grief it’ll cause the other people. I’m in  LT that position, too. My mother  knew about my SMALL tattoos  LT years ago but my folks don’t know anything  more. However,  LT if they ever found out, I wouldn’t be ashamed of it. I’m  LT just not gonna press the issue.    My question to him was "what if she decides she wants sleeves?"  I know of at least two local management level professional womyn who have to wear long sleeves to work.  As far as I know they started out to "just get one". Da Bear

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Question:

"Mothers Who Hate Their Daughters’ Appearance" was the topic of Thursday’s Jenny Jones.  The comments and arguments were what you’d expect. All of the young women had several piercings each – mostly ears, lip, eyebrow, nostril, septum, navel, tongue, and a few small tattoos. Most of the girls had pierced themselves: "I just grabbed a safety pin out of this guy’s jacket and an earring out of the guy’s ear and pierced my lip…in the coffeeshop."  Another young woman has repierced her eyebrows several times leaving very visible scar tissue due to the ring ripping out. Aother had a fight with her mom and pierced her nose in the local convenience store’s bathroom with a safety pin.  Another shoved an earring stud through her tonguew (luckily her mom made her take it out). One woman did have a very nice set of piercings – Labret, Septum, Nostril, Triple Navel (ring-curved barbell-ring arrangement). Oce again, there was a marked ignorance of safety concerns – Jenny asked the Convenience Store pierced girl if it got infected, but she replied No. So…I got busy and spoke to a representative at the Jenny Jones Show that afternoon.  All I got was 2 minutes and, "Thank you for voicing your opinions."  I assume these phone conversations are taped, though. I think some presentation of piercing as a medically safe and esteem oriented activity should be presented to the "Average American" (pardon any stereotypes) – all that’s been aired so far has been "Just LOOK what these out of control rebelious teens are doing to their bodies…They’ll grow out of it." And considering just how large the viewership of these talk shows is, how pervasive their influence.  No wonder I get some many stares at the grocery, and am left waiting for service at the department store counter, and why several women at the Social Security office lobby were voicing loudly, "Did you see that?  She got ‘em in her eyebrow, her nose…" Ardvark —                               * Ardvark *                             Anne Greenblatt                Piercing FAQ Manager for rec.arts.bodyart                         Piercing  Exquisite <

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Ardvark’s post regarding *another* [sigh] TV talk show aimed at making disparaging comments about bodmod brings me to this– Don’t these shows accept "applications" from people who are interested in being on these shows? How come we always end up with these people who do *NOT* represent what we would like in bodmodders (self-pierced, doing it out of anger to the parent, etc.)? I know for a fact that Elayne Binnie has been on some of these shows (Donahue, etc.). We might seriously consider taking the opportunity to start phoning these shows to see if we could get ourselves on their list of guests. It would be nice to see some intelligent, articulate people with some REAL bodmod information. AND to keep these from becoming freak show exhibits, it would be a Very Good Idea if whoever gets chosen for these shows can announce it beforehand, so that we could have friends who sit in on the shows (I mean this as "friends" vs. "enemies") in the audience to help discuss things intelligently. — UH School of Library & Info Studies. "Whatever the cost of our   o|<0_0——* libraries, the price is cheap compared to that of an ignorant      =^-| |_| | nation." -Walter Cronkite [R.a.b.bit--FAQ Maintainer: "Think Ink!"]    _B}_B}

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<getting more intelligent, representative people on talk shows so we dont look bad the problem with this idea is that it would really depend on the show.  I believe Jenny Jones Show, no matter who the guests were, would still leave people with a negative image of body art. We’d have to find a host who wasn’t condescending or negative about us.  And yes, we would definitely have to have friends in the audience. — "What?!  The land of the free?  Whoever told you that is your enemy."                             -Rage Against The Machine                              Know Your Enemy "They say jump, you say ‘How High?’"

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I bet that Ricki Lake would be pretty cool with it.  She is a lot younger than most other talk show hosts, and seems to be pretty open-minded, although half of her shows that I’ve seen end up in people fighting or walking off the set!  :)  Lyons — Lyons Hardy   **   "With humans gone, will there be hope for gorilla?" UVA Crew                                       -Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn

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:I know for a fact that Elayne Binnie has been on some of these shows Donahue, etc.). We might seriously consider taking the opportunity to :start phoning these shows to see if we could get ourselves on their :list of guests. FWIW, i don’t get bent out of shape if most folx don’t "get it" as to the whys and wherefores of bodmod.  The way i figure it, with all the nearly limitless permutations of the human experience, in most cases it’s nearly impossible to convey to another person what a particular experience X is like, and how it changed one’s life, and what X means to a particular person — especially on a limited format like a television talk show (truth be told, i never watch television anymore except for "Deep Space 9", the news, and the occasional MST3K). Getting worked up because other people have a distorted view of experience X is, for me, akin to trying to control what other people think.  If i oppose them in the battle for the "hearts and minds" of others, i must out of necessity play the same game they are playing.   Instead, i choose not to play at all.  As long as other people don’t try to involve me in their misrepresentations, or violate my privacy, i’m perfectly happy to let them remain as ignorant as they wanna be. "The cold search for truth hunts in no pack." That’s what i think, anyway. — boy brent                       |

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:Besides, if all of a sudden, all of straight America suddenly started :thinking that your tattoos and piercings were "charming and unique", half f you would would probably decide you didn’t want them anymore. The newspaper carried an article this weekend about tattoo removal.  i liked one person’s quote: "Getting tattooed because it’s trendy is like having a polyester liesure suit permanently affixed to your body." i talked to my tatt artist this weekend and asked him which tattoos were most popular.  The Taz was up there, of course, along with Harley wings and — this surprised me — the "Bad Boy" logo.  Seems all the adolescent het muscleboys want it, just like navel piercings are so popular among adolescent girls.. — boy brent                       |

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i talked to my tatt artist this weekend and asked him which tattoos were most popular.  The Taz was up there, of course, along with Harley wings and — this surprised me — the "Bad Boy" logo.  Seems all the adolescent het muscleboys want it, just like navel piercings are so popular among adolescent girls..

This is hilarious.  In 20 years these guys are gonna feel like total dorks walking around with the 90’s equivalent of that "Keep On Truckin…" bumper sticker on their arms. — Ray Shea       | SES, Inc. Austin TX || "Computers kinda suck."

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Getting worked up because other people have a distorted view of experience X is, for me, akin to trying to control what other people think.  

I agree.  Who cares?  You’re talking about people who go on vacation so they can be audience members on "Geraldo".  These are not the people who I count on acceptance and support. Besides, if all of a sudden, all of straight America suddenly started thinking that your tattoos and piercings were "charming and unique", half of you would would probably decide you didn’t want them anymore. — Ray Shea       | SES, Inc. Austin TX || "Computers kinda suck."

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Hey everyone… okay, Lani was thinkin’ we should get on the air to dispel the bullshit, and brent replied…  FWIW, i don’t get bent out of shape if most folx don’t "get it" as to the whys and wherefores of bodmod.  The way i figure it, with all the nearly limitless permutations of the human experience, in most cases it’s nearly impossible to convey to another person what a particular experience X is like, and how it changed one’s life, and what X means to a particular person…

Granted, but is that enough reason for us not to *try*?  I realize it’s one thing to attempt to _communicate_ with people for whom we care personally and another to make the same effort toward all of mankind, or whatever largely anonymous subset of the same (and this conversation I trust is making such a distinction)… but at *some* level anyway, I expect most of us yearn to make that connection, to indeed convey to another person everything you’re despairing of conveying.  And we try. Why not?  But back to talk shows… (truth be told, i never watch television anymore except for "Deep Space 9", the news, and the occasional MST3K).

heh heh hooray… I watch tv not at all excepting what my eyes get drawn to as I move between tv and lounging housemates on my way to something infinitely superior – when I first read Lani’s idea about trying to get onto talk shows I thought hmm, sleeping with the enemy… and then i thought, conflictedly, hmm what an *educational* opportunity… Getting worked up because other people have a distorted view of experience X is, for me, akin to trying to control what other people think… [snip] …  As long as other people don’t try to involve me in their misrepresentations, or violate my privacy, i’m perfectly happy to let them remain as ignorant as they wanna be.

With all due respect and all continuing admiration, brent, this is sounding awfully negative to my perky little let’s-save-society-and- have-a-good-time-at-it ears.  Where’s the room for dialogue, for teaching others or at least exposing them to other parts of reality?  I think there’s a wide wide gap between sharing information, conveying experinces, and yes speaking out a corrective view – and mind control. There’s "this is what I think; think about it", and *then* there’s "this is what i think and this is a baseball bat". Not *every* malinformed soul out there is a muddy stick about, in this case, bodyart, or whatever misconception they’re living with.  You’ll reach *some* folks if you make the annoying effort, and they’ll be grateful.  And become allies. All the same, I’m not picking up the phone to dial any 900 numbers.  It’s still sleeping with the enemy in my book, but someone else can have fun and fame if they wanna try That’s what i think, anyway.

which is cool.  And this is what i think.  Also, anyway. Janet                                    Janet Ingraham at remote unsecure

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Where’s the room for dialogue, for teaching others or at least exposing them to other parts of reality?  

I dunno, it’s just that ever since Barb beat up the wait staff, it’s been hard to go back to the old way of doing things. — Ray Shea       | SES, Inc. Austin TX || "Computers kinda suck."

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:This is hilarious.  In 20 years these guys are gonna feel like total dorks :walking around with the 90’s equivalent of that "Keep On Truckin…" :bumper sticker on their arms. It’s like Karl pointed out, tattoo removal is going to be the growth industry of the ’90s.  i read in that newspaper article that the tatt removal people get up to $1000/hr… i’ve never understood why anybody would want something so corporate on their skin.  Whatever. — boy brent                       |

Response:

:Granted, but is that enough reason for us not to *try*?  I realize it’s ne thing to attempt to _communicate_ with people for whom we care :personally and another to make the same effort toward all of mankind, or :whatever largely anonymous subset of the same (and this conversation I :trust is making such a distinction)… but at *some* level anyway, I :expect most of us yearn to make that connection, to indeed convey to :another person everything you’re despairing of conveying.  And we try. Whoa, i didn’t say anything about what you should do.  i spoke only of my own experiences and views. i draw a big distinction between when somebody comes to me and asks "why do you do X?" and me going to other people, unsolicited, and trying to pursuade them that experience X is a Good Thing.  The reason i do that is a personal thing for me, and actually has more to do with my experience as a gay man than it does as a modern primitive, although there is a considerable overlap. This being an anniversary of sorts for me, i’ll tell you why i feel this way.  Two years ago, lesbian and gay people in Oregon were in a state of siege.  A local group of bigots had sponsored a ballot measure that would have amended the constitution of Oregon that would have required the state to have schools teach that homosexuals were "abnormal, unnatural, wrong, and perverse," prohibit the state from spending any money in in addressing the needs of the state’s gay citizens (which would have included enforcement of hate crime laws, HIV prevention efforts, and even use of state streets or parks for gay pride rallys), banned gay positive books from libraries, etc etc.  i’ve been out for many years, and i’ve aseen a lot of political campaigns and hatred; but i’ve never seen anything as nasty as this campaign.  The number of hate crimes went thru the roof.  Two people, a white gay man and a black lesbian, were murdered in Salem — burned alive by racist skinheads.  i got death threats.  A person i knew who was active in the opposition campaigh had the brakes cut on his car.  Local gay-positive gay churches were broken into and desecrated.  The local newspaper carried quotes from people who said that homosexuals weren’t even human beings, we were animals. i worked hundreds of hours and gave thousands of dollars to defeat this initiative; and come election day we won, by 56% to 44%.  i couldn’t believe that after all the efforts that me and other people like me had gone to to educate people, that 44% of the people in the state would still hate us so much.  Then the leader of the bigots came on TV and announced that they would be back in two years to do it again. It was more than i could take.  i had gotten so wrapped up in other people’s approval of me that i had lost my perspective.  Depressed and on the verge of suicide, i ended up in the hospital for a week. That was the lowest point for me.  Two years, a lot of therapy, antidepressants, and personal growth have made all the difference. Today i am a very different person.  i no longer look to other people or places to provide for my safety; i carry that inside of me now.  i have enough of a sense of self that i no longer need to have other people’s approval or acceptance of me. And once i got to that point something interesting happened.  i found that it wasn’t as necessary that other people agree with me, either. The urgent need to get other people to understand my motivations and feelings went away. That carries over to my feelings about bodmod.  i do bodmod because it’s something i want to do, for myself.  It’s not important to me if other people understand or approve.  So i guess this is where i’m coming from on the TV show; i just don’t care if people are unwilling to listen or have closed minds.  It’s not going to affect me, because i’m not going to let it.  i’m not going to give them the power to upset me with their ignorance and controlling attitudes. BTW, the bigots did indeed come back this year.  The election is a week from today.  They may win this time, or they may lose; but either way i’m going to go on with my own life, and not give them the power to set my agenda. — boy brent                       |

Response:

brent’s general attitude was, "why try to change people’s views?" Getting worked up because other people have a distorted view of experience X is, for me, akin to trying to control what other people think… [snip] …  As long as other people don’t try to involve me in their misrepresentations, or violate my privacy, i’m perfectly happy to let them remain as ignorant as they wanna be.

…to which Janet said: Not *every* malinformed soul out there is a muddy stick about, in this case, bodyart, or whatever misconception they’re living with.  You’ll reach *some* folks if you make the annoying effort, and they’ll be grateful.  And become allies.

Okay–I’d like to pipe in here. I met a wonderful woman a few weeks ago. "Jane" was born "James" (she’s pre-op so no physical changes), and is a retired captain in the US Navy (still goes to the Officers Club, etc.)–almost 70 years old and all of 30 inside. Jane is on a number of board of directors and committees in her native Minnesota for various transgendered groups, and she said she has been on four national talk shows (Sally Jesse Raphael, Montel, etc. etc.). She said that she has a very specific agenda when she goes on these shows, which is try to educate the public about the transgendered. So when the host asks, "How old were you when you first started cross-dressing?" Her answer is, "Well, we really need to support those who are transgendered because…" Yup–she gets her points across regardless of the questions asked. She said she would be happy if she could change ONE person’s view on the transgendered. And for years after these talk shows, people still come up to her and say, "I saw you on ______. Hey–I never knew anybody like you. Thank you for doing the show–it helped me a lot." She said THAT is what makes the talk shows worthwhile. — UH School of Library & Info Studies. "Whatever the cost of our   o|<0_0——* libraries, the price is cheap compared to that of an ignorant      =^-| |_| | nation." -Walter Cronkite [R.a.b.bit--FAQ Maintainer: "Think Ink!"]    _B}_B}

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[popular flash] The Taz was up there, of course, along with Harley wings and — this surprised me — the "Bad Boy" logo.

Is this a mainland phenomenon as well? I thought it was limited to the Japanese punk boys here (they all drive souped up Honda CRXs or bullet bikes). I might be wrong, but I am almost sure the Bad Boy logo was started by a surf store here. Egads–what a thing to be known for (Lani cowers in embarrassment). Seems all the adolescent het muscleboys want it, just like navel piercings are so popular among adolescent girls..

I think a lot of the local Asian kids don’t get bodmod because it’s disrespectful (it’s one thing to be cool, one thing to put shame on the family). [Asian=Japanese/Chinese here. sorry if I didn't define that. Other Asian cultures (namely the Filipino) I see a lot of homemade tats on--the youth gang influence, I'd think.] — UH School of Library & Info Studies. "Whatever the cost of our   o|<0_0——* libraries, the price is cheap compared to that of an ignorant      =^-| |_| | nation." -Walter Cronkite [R.a.b.bit--FAQ Maintainer: "Think Ink!"]    _B}_B}

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[brent discusses at length about spouting one's views to others, and  discusses his personal work on the No on 9 campaign against  Measure 9 from the Oregon Citizen's Alliance Initiative proposing  to amend the Oregon Constitution two years ago.] i worked hundreds of hours and gave thousands of dollars to defeat this initiative; and come election day we won, by 56% to 44%.  i couldn’t believe that after all the efforts that me and other people like me had gone to to educate people, that 44% of the people in the state would still hate us so much.

Oh dear lord brent–and if No on 9 didn’t happen, it wouldn’t have been a 44% defeat!!! The margin may have been high–but you were fighting narrowminded rifle-racked lumberjacks and tabakker-spittin’ salmon fishermen from places like Brookings (nothing against open-minded lumberjacks and tolerant fishermen)! My understanding is that the educated and liberal population of Portland "soundly defeated" this proposition. BTW, the bigots did indeed come back this year.  The election is a week from today.  They may win this time, or they may lose; but either way i’m going to go on with my own life, and not give them the power to set my agenda.

If they win, you may not be able to go on with your own life in the way you choose to live it. It may also set a scary precedent for other states. OTOH, it may sound an alarm to the rest of the country. There must be a compromise between exhausting your entire self for a cause, and giving up completely. –Lani, who can’t believe her fortune in living in a state where the   big issue is whether the inept state legislature can come up with a   better compelling reason besides "a marriage *SHOULD* be between a   man and a woman" in its argument against the state supreme court,   which next spring is planning to turn the entire institution of   marriage upside down by allowing same-sex couples the right to   marry–and may serve as a domino effect to the rest of the country,   since a legal marriage in Hawaii will have to be recognize elsewhere   as valid. — UH School of Library & Info Studies. "Whatever the cost of our   o|<0_0——* libraries, the price is cheap compared to that of an ignorant      =^-| |_| | nation." -Walter Cronkite [R.a.b.bit--FAQ Maintainer: "Think Ink!"]    _B}_B}

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(discussion of anti-homosexuality initiatives & bigotry in OR snipped) If they win, you may not be able to go on with your own life in the way you choose to live it. It may also set a scary precedent for other states. OTOH, it may sound an alarm to the rest of the country.

…Unfortunately, we have the same bigotry going on out here in Idaho, and on Tuesday, Idahoans will get to vote on the same sort of initiative (Proposition 1). =( I’m kicking myself that I didn’t register, finally something I feel strongly enough to go down and vote against, and I was playing ostrich and didn’t find out it was on the ballot until too late. =(         -Tig

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:If they win, you may not be able to go on with your own life in the :way you choose to live it. Oh?  Hide and watch, and see if i don’t. PS. The courts will throw it out if it passes.  Several courts have already held that measures like this are a clear violation the First and Fourteenth Amendments. — boy brent                       |

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:She said that she has a very specific agenda when she goes on these :shows, which is try to educate the public about the transgendered. :She said THAT is what makes the talk shows worthwhile. Does it?  i guess my take on that would be, why is educating other people about something that is so deeply personal to me so important? Is it because i want to influence public policy decisions in this area, or is it because i want to get other people to accept me? Because if it’s the latter, i would submit that this involves me giving away power that i would prefer to grab for myself.  It’s one thing if someone comes to me and asks me why i do X, because then i can choose whether or not i want to respond, and in what venue, and if they don’t get it i am not so heavily invested in the outcome. OTOH, if i go to other people, seek them out, and try to educate them, they determine whether or not i am successful, not me.  i guess i would rather engage in activities where i am the master of the outcome, not others. — boy brent                       |

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